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C R E A T E A D |
Religion: Why so sacred?
| #1 :: June 17th, 2010 @ 2:09 PM | |
 BlocksBlocksBlocksThe Doctor    1,600 Posts 717 Achievements  
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Virtually every post I make in this forum garners negative feedback, with other posters telling me to be more respectful. What's the deal?
I'm not setting this up as a debate about myself, but about the concept of sacredness in general. Why should anything be sacred? What makes something sacred? Moreover, why is it important for other people, who don't view a concept/item/practice/belief/etc as sacred, to pretend they do? I'm sure we can all agree it's wrong to barge into a baptism and scream about infant brainwashing, but doesn't that have more to do with respecting other people's privacy than actually acknowledging the sacred nature of a baptism? If we're having an online debate about baptism, where everyone consented to each other's presence and right to speak -- unlike the above example with the uninvited activist -- how can it be disrespectful for me to say "Baptism is wrong because it brainwashes infants"? So yeah, what's the deal with sacredness?
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| #2 :: June 17th, 2010 @ 2:19 PM | |
| FromTheMoon Member  23 Posts 149 Achievements |
I have no idea about what people find so special about these fairy tales to tell you the truth
 I just go with what my gut and my mind tell me not a book.
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| #3 :: June 17th, 2010 @ 3:51 PM | |
| TITANIUM Donated to the Cash Shop  259 Posts 159 Achievements |
@BlocksBlocksBlocks
I've been wondering this for a while as well. It seems freedom of speech hits a wall when it comes to religion and I've never understood why. A religion is essentially a set of beliefs. They are void of fact and often times are a justification for discrimination and general intolerance. Yet they are so respected that speaking out against them triggers a nasty backlash more often than not. Even a neutral, blunt comment about the reality of a certain religion's teachings will fluster and anger some followers. In my opinion, religion has done nothing worthy of its ‘holy’ status and I believe the current place of religion in our society as some kind of untouchable force is extremely detrimental. My conclusion is that this 'sacredness', while once a tool used to persuade people of a religion's authority, is now used to protect the faithful's pride. They live their entire lives based on the teachings of their religion, so imagine how it must affect them to be faced with the hypocrisies and irregularities of their religion, not to mention the scientific facts that prove their beliefs wrong. But with a drop of the word “faith” or “belief,” suddenly nobody is allowed to say anything remotely critical of that particular religion for fear of being offensive. It’s like a defense mechanism. If they can’t hear you, nothing you say is true. But when people hold their tongue regarding religion, I don't think that qualifies as them pretending to hold it sacred. I think that's them trying to be politically correct and not upset anyone. Which, again, stems back to the "holy" status religion is given in society and really shows how it affects even non-believers. In general conversation, religion is not normally debated because it stirs up such strong emotions. But I think it's ridiculous that something so influential, open-ended, and controversial should be left undiscussed just because people's feelings could get hurt. In my opinion, it is definitely a topic that needs to be taken off the pedestal and be introduced to society as something that should be considered without the fear of offending others and without the childish sensitivity that muffles the skeptical and demonizes the questioning.
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| #4 :: June 17th, 2010 @ 3:55 PM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
I'm so glad people agree with me! It's really quite disturbing that we allow people this inalienable right to be ridiculous when those beliefs do so, so much damage. EDIT: Shouldn't the specified sacredness of religion raise more alarms for believers? When I'm in school and a prof says "Literature is like this..." or "This philosophy is misguided because...", we're allowed to discuss it. By discussing it, classmates either come to agree or disagree with the prof, and IMO, that makes the prof's opinions more credible. They can withstand criticism. When you're told not to ask questions or told that some area of the religion is out of bounds because it's too sacred, doesn't that make you feel like a child? Isn't it the same as a parent saying, "You can't do that because I said so", as if their word trumps logic? Like, is it so horrible that I compare Jesus to Santa Claus, something that has ired other posters on here in the past? If I say "I like pea soup" and someone else says "Pea soup is the same as vomit from a person who just ate peas," I'm not going to freak out about disrespect or blasphemy. I would say that there are different ingredients in pea soup and pea vomit, and make a logical argument about why pea soup is better. (Or just let it go, really.) I wouldn't say that pea soup is holy and above comparison and I certainly wouldn't be offended that someone else thinks it's gross. Last Edit by:
BlocksBlocksBlocks 6/17/10 - 4:05:27 pm
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| #5 :: June 17th, 2010 @ 4:37 PM | |
| TITANIUM Donated to the Cash Shop 259 Posts 159 Achievements |
@BlocksBlocksBlocks
Your example with pea soup is exactly the type of behavior I'm talking about. My mom and I debate everything under the sun. We have very different opinions on many subjects and enjoy our friendly arguing. However, religion is not something she'll even touch. I bring up anything remotely religious and she refuses to "go there." I don't know if she finds it too exhausting to defend her position or if she doesn't feel as if there is a reason to debate any religious principles, but she absolutely will not discuss it. This attitude toward religion is something that really disturbs me. People will blindly follow religious teachings and live their life the way someone else tells them to whether it be through a holy book or a religious leader. Every action they make must follow the moral code of their faith and thus impacts every aspect of their life, whether they are aware of it or not. How can something so prominent in a person's life never be questioned? How can someone hang on every word of a pastor or imam or rabbi and not ever consider its validity? I could never live my life passively accepting the unproven teachings of a religious organization that wants to decide how I should behave. My biggest issue with holding religion sacred is it gives organized religion an excuse when they can't logically support their actions or beliefs. It allows for no questions, no opinions, and thus no development. It allows religion to maintain a firm hold on its followers and instruct them without any back talk. I remember when I used to attend religious education (I was raised and confirmed as a Catholic, ha), one of my classes had tons of questions that our teacher "didn't feel comfortable or qualified" to answer. So, she invited one of the priests to come to our class during any time that year to answer our questions. What do you know? He could never make it. Maybe we shouldn't have sent him a list of our questions ahead of time because clearly he had no interest in answering them. Now, I realize that is one isolated incident that my have gone over differently at another church, but it just serves to reinforce my own opinion and further reveal the dangers of an untouchable, "sacred" topic.
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| #6 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 1:44 AM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
Quote By @Kaiya:
How can something so prominent in a person's life never be questioned? How can someone hang on every word of a pastor or imam or rabbi and not ever consider its validity? I really don't understand that either. And even more frightening, because there are religious people out there who do (or think they do, anyway) ask questions, is the intolerance for people who don't believe. Some religious people seem to give lip service to the idea of tolerance for atheists, but when they actually hear our opinions (or maybe it's just my opinions) laid bare, they take offense and use words like "blasphemy" or my favourite, "disrespect." I can extend a basic level of politeness to people, like I wouldn't call someone an idiot for believing in a god, but respect is something to be earned and frankly, irrational acceptance of a myth isn't something I can (or want to) respect. Quote: My biggest issue with holding religion sacred is it gives organized religion an excuse when they can't logically support their actions or beliefs. It allows for no questions, no opinions, and thus no development. It allows religion to maintain a firm hold on its followers and instruct them without any back talk. So true! There's no reason ever given why something is sacred. It's unbelievable how many people have been killed or otherwise persecuted throughout history for questioning something, simply because that thing is "sacred." What mystifies me though is how people have continued to believe in religions anyway, even knowing about the forced silence (historically enforced with violence and scare tactics) that allowed religion to gain popularity in the first place. I mean, how can the word "sacred" still mean anything to anyone? It's so incredibly obvious that it's designed to put one particular ideology on a pedestal, above our own powers of reason and critical thinking.
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| #7 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 2:23 AM | |
| Blu The Helper  1,749 Posts 761 Achievements |
 @Kaiya Okay, As both of you have stated many people have died in the name of religion, weather either of you regard it as sacred or not it is to others, to the point of life and death. The only reason I would flip out on someone "debating" with me about religion is if they come and start demonizing me for my beliefs or belittling them by putting them on the same level as santa clause. If your gonna debate do it with facts not sarcasm. There is also a lot of "facts" and "logic" talk going on here. Bottom line is that yes, people have unfounded faith and beliefs in their particular religions but so do atheists. YOU do NOT know who put us here. What started evolution? What caused the big bang? No one knows the answers to these questions so debating things like this still leads us to a dead end with both sides BELIEVING what they want to BELIEVE. And if you both are as open minded and philosophical as you state you are then why aren't you realizing that many people need something to hold on to. A belief, a dream, a hope everyone does it and not many LIKE to accept that at the end of this life your consciousness fades into nothing and you were basically nothing to the world or the other people around you. People can debate all they want for as long as they want but there are still scientific dead ends that we currently haven't been able to get past. I see no point in debating people's beliefs because there is no answer on either side yet. Many people ARE uneducated and don't really think about what belief they are really practicing but I've met many atheists that don't even consider anything outside of their beliefs, there are uneducated people on both sides. I don't know who jumps all over you guys when you talk about religion but I don't think its on this site, I rarely see people on here defending religious beliefs and when they do, they usually get swamped with refutes.
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| #8 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 2:50 AM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
Quote By @Blu:
Okay, Well, I was about to post that I can't imagine caring about others' religions enough to be moved to violence, but I'm not entirely sure that's true. (Actually, this seems like a separate debate to have, so I'm probably going to start something about war motivation in the general debate forum.) Quote: belittling them by putting them on the same level as santa clause. If your gonna debate do it with facts not sarcasm. I'm genuinely not being sarcastic. I can't remember if I've been sarcastic in the past, but I'm not in this debate, and I'm not being sarcastic when I compare Jesus/God to Santa Claus. To me, they truly are very similar. I guess I am belittling your beliefs, but I don't want to belittle you (the person). Quote: YOU do NOT know who put us here. I don't see any reason to think there was any entity or magical intelligence behind existence. To me, there isn't even a question of "who" it was. It's like asking who put snow on the ground. Quote: What started evolution? Reproduction and mutations. I'm terrible in science, but my understanding is that there was once a one-celled organism and then it did meiosis or whatever, and eventually, because statistically mutations are guaranteed, something bigger was spawned. That thing reproduced, other things mutated out of it, and over an incredibly long period of time, animals and humans arose. Evolution could have happened differently; I imagine on other, distant planets, it did. Quote: What caused the big bang? I don't know, but I think there are astrophysicists who could give us a complicated answer that to be honest, I probably wouldn't really understand. I think it has something to do with energy. So my belief is that science is working on the answer to that, and it's not really a question that matters all that much to me personally. Quote: And if you both are as open minded and philosophical as you state you are then why aren't you realizing that many people need something to hold on to. That saddens me more than I can say. Hold onto family, friends, lovers, a career you're passionate about, art, science, intellectual pursuits... there is so much in this world that we can enjoy. Quote: A belief, a dream, a hope everyone does it and not many LIKE to accept that at the end of this life your consciousness fades into nothing and you were basically nothing to the world or the other people around you. That's so bleak! Either there's heaven or this is all crap? When I die, I think the people I cared for will remember me and I'll continue to mean something, to them. I would also like to have some positive effect on the world in general (like through literature or other career stuff). There are plenty of tangible ways to effect the world after you're dead. Quote: People can debate all they want for as long as they want but there are still scientific dead ends that we currently haven't been able to get past. Yeah, but look at how far we've come, even just in the last century. There was a time when we knew so little about AIDS (fka GRID) that our best guess was "God's punishing the gays." Science is ongoing, so why should we throw our hands up at the remaining questions and give into irrational explanations? Just because I don't know, say, who threw a brick through the window and I don't have the CSI skills to identify the person responsible doesn't mean a ghost did it.
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| #9 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 2:54 AM | |
| triskadancer Subeta Luva  60 Posts 89 Achievements |
@Blu
That's why I am agnostic, not atheist. I find belief in something I cannot prove ridiculous, so I don't debate either side. Most of the time, when I debate religion, I debate the semantics of it- the Bible teachings and why I don't find them valid or good to live by, etc, not the existence of god. Concrete things that I can reference and debate. I honestly find hardcore atheists just as silly as hardcore religious people when it comes to debating god's existence. ~neverknowsbest~ ♥ |
| #10 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 3:01 AM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
Quote By @triskadancer: I honestly find hardcore atheists just as silly as hardcore religious people when it comes to debating god's existence. Do you find it ridiculous that I'm certain unicorns don't exist? I study rhetoric and in one course, I learned that the burden of proof always has to be on the "pro" side. Like, if we're debating whether or not to change something, the side arguing for staying with the status quo has the "it's good enough like this" factor on their side, whereas the other side has to prove that there is reason to believe the change will improve things. So if the status quo is an absence of belief -- as we're all born -- atheists have the advantage because pro-religious people need to prove that believing religion makes more sense than remaining non-religious. EDIT: Another example: There's a road and some people want to change the number of lanes. The side against changing the road, in order to win the debate, doesn't have to say a thing if the other side can't prove there's a distinct benefit to implementing the change. If their case isn't strong enough, the naysayers win by default. Last Edit by:
BlocksBlocksBlocks 6/19/10 - 3:03:04 am
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| #11 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 3:25 AM | |
| Blu The Helper 1,749 Posts 761 Achievements |
Quote: I'm genuinely not being sarcastic. I can't remember if I've been sarcastic in the past, but I'm not in this debate, and I'm not being sarcastic when I compare Jesus/God to Santa Claus. Well if you genuinely aren't being sarcastic then I genuinely can't see how you get offended when people get angry at you for comparing santa to anyone's religious leader, genuinely. I'm sure your not trying to belittle anyone. Quote: I don't see any reason to think there was any entity or magical intelligence behind existence. I'll rephrase, you do now know what put us here. Quote: I'm terrible in science, but my understanding is that there was once a one-celled organism and then it did meiosis or whatever, and eventually, because statistically mutations are guaranteed, something bigger was spawned. Yes but where did that single celled organism come from? That is what I was referring to when I asked what started evolution. Quote: I don't know, but I think there are astrophysicists who could give us a complicated answer that to be honest, I probably wouldn't really understand. I think it has something to do with energy. I don't know, but I think there are astrophysicists who could give us a complicated answer that to be honest, I probably wouldn't really understand. I think it has something to do with energy. I love astrophysics and its what I'll be majoring in hopefully, in truth there there are many theories, out there many crazy but all unproven. Science is working on an answer but as a whole the scientific community does not know what caused the big bang. Quote: So my belief is that science is working on the answer to that, and it's not really a question that matters all that much to me personally. Its strange that you will ponder people's beliefs and actions based off of religion but you won't ponder how the universe in which we live started? Seems like your asking people to see an atheists point of view and to open up their minds to logic but your not doing the same yourself nor have you even thought it through. Quote: Yeah, but look at how far we've come, even just in the last century. There was a time when we knew so little about AIDS (fka GRID) that our best guess was "God's punishing the gays." Science is ongoing, so why should we throw our hands up at the remaining questions and give into irrational explanations? I'm not saying that we should throw our hands up nor do I EVER blame natural disasters on God blaming anyone for anything. It seems that your basing your thoughts about people with religious views or maybe even just Christians on the loudest most obnoxious lesser minded of the group. Seek out people who are educated and have made their decisions on their beliefs with thought before you go judging a group based off the uneducated or narrow minded. @triskadancer It's true that when anyone usually takes anything to a crazy level things can get bad. XD Last Edit by:
Blu 6/19/10 - 3:27:30 am
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| #12 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 3:52 AM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
Quote By @Blu:
Well if you genuinely aren't being sarcastic then I genuinely can't see how you get offended when people get angry at you for comparing santa to anyone's religious leader, genuinely. I find that reaction offensive because it implies that I'm somehow stupid for not seeing the sacred/divine/whatever difference between Santa and God. Or like they're saying that answering my question (why the two are so different) is below them. Quote: Yes but where did that single celled organism come from? That is what I was referring to when I asked what started evolution. An asteroid? To be honest, the origin of that organism means nothing more to me than the origin of the rocks and grass beside it. I guess to me, evolution didn't really start... it's more that matter exists and it happened to be arranged in a way that eventually produced sentience. It's not significant; life does not signify. It just is. Stuff exists. Quote: Science is working on an answer but as a whole the scientific community does not know what caused the big bang. Not yet, no, but we've answered so many questions in the past that it's really only a matter of time. Quote: Its strange that you will ponder people's beliefs and actions based off of religion but you won't ponder how the universe in which we live started? Seems like your asking people to see an atheists point of view and to open up their minds to logic but your not doing the same yourself nor have you even thought it through. I'm not sure what you mean. I'm disinterested in the origin of the universe personally, because to me it's all science and technology and getting into the details bores me. I'm not interested in math either, but it doesn't mean I'm not certain that one plus one equals two. I've thought through the existence of gods though, and to me, when there's no reason to believe something exists, I can safely and reasonably declare that it doesn't. I don't need to look under my bed right now to know there's no monster there. My bed's not shaking, there's no strange sounds or smells and nothing's grabbing at my ankles. I'm absolutely certain there's nothing unusual down there. Quote: It seems that your basing your thoughts about people with religious views or maybe even just Christians on the loudest most obnoxious lesser minded of the group. Seek out people who are educated and have made their decisions on their beliefs with thought before you go judging a group based off the uneducated or narrow minded. I'm really, seriously not trying to offend you or anyone else by saying this: I think having faith is necessary narrow-minded. So while I don't think being religious is the same as being stupid or anything like that, I do think faith is an intellectual failing, and with all the smarter-than-most-people Catholics I know, no one's ever proved me wrong.
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| #13 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 4:02 AM | |
| Blu The Helper 1,749 Posts 761 Achievements |
I find that reaction offensive because it implies that I'm somehow stupid for not seeing the sacred/divine/whatever difference between Santa and God. Or like they're saying that answering my question (why the two are so different) is below them. I'm not saying that answering your question is below me. You made this forum to ask why people jump all over you for saying that santa and Jesus are similar. I am saying logically, if you understand that people feel strong about religion then how can you think they won't react strongly to that statement? Quote: I'm really, seriously not trying to offend you or anyone else by saying this: I think having faith is necessary narrow-minded. So while I don't think being religious is the same as being stupid or anything like that, I do think faith is an intellectual failing, and with all the smarter-than-most-people Catholics I know, no one's ever proved me wrong. There takes a certain amount of faith to say that you don't know how the universe was created but that it just was and that you are completely sure there was nothing intelligent behind it. And, I'm not trying to offend anyone either, it sounds awfully narrow minded to be an atheist as well. I'm done for now. You have your beliefs and I have mine and so do the other 8 billion people on this earth. I've had my share of religious debating for the month. Not trying to offend or anything good night! EDIT: But first because you've thrown out so many lovely analogies I'll throw out my own. There is an ant that was placed in a box, and the ant doesn't care how it got in the box and doesn't care whats outside the box. Its just an ant in a box. Last Edit by:
Blu 6/19/10 - 4:23:50 am
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| #14 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 4:22 AM | |
| temporaryplaceholder is a DANCING QUEEN  1,607 Posts 329 Achievements |
 I find, the only thing worse than someone acting like religion is untouchable, is criticising science because it's not. ie, Blu above... (who I shall not ping because she seems to not really want to be here any longer because things didn't go her way... O_o) That is the advantage of science- that we ADMIT we don't know certain problems and try to find the answer. To call upon the shortcomings of science is pointless... religion has the exact same problems- only they refuse to adapt on top of that. Utterly useless to pick one random fairytale and stick with it regardless of what your world presents to you.
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| #15 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 4:29 AM | |
| Blu The Helper 1,749 Posts 761 Achievements |
Last Edit by:
Blu 6/19/10 - 5:09:27 am
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| #16 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 4:38 AM | |
| MOcheeka Is Lonely  3,933 Posts 331 Achievements |
 @BlocksBlocksBlocks o3o Quote: Like, is it so horrible that I compare Jesus to Santa Claus, something that has ired other posters on here in the past? Quote: I am saying logically, if you understand that people feel strong about religion then how can you think they won't react strongly to that statement? And quote of all the things you posted in post #10. Good analogy. Note. Comparing Jesus to Santa Claus was similar to how `hardcore atheists` were compared to `hardcore religious people`. If something you are personally attached to and/or believe in was compared to as smiliar with something that you felt was utterly not on the same level, I`m sure you`d react stronger than you would say, the pea soup analogy you used. You did react quite strongly to the atheists=religious in crazies comparison. So why wouldn`t a religious person react strongly to a Jesus=Santee Claus comparison? There`s a need to defend one`s belief. Both sides. Get? Not `nuff? Saying my mom was = to a hoe would naturally make me upset. Wouldn`t it you? xT It`s just a general thing. Some things that aren`t offensive to one, maybe be to another. :T Tis all I have to say on that fraction of this thread. I`m observing the rest. Last Edit by:
MOcheeka 6/19/10 - 4:48:56 amDA : HA : Art Shop : Art Pings : Forum art credit to |
| #17 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 4:39 AM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
Quote By @Blu:
If your gonna debate do it with facts not sarcasm.
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| #18 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 4:46 AM | |
| Blu The Helper 1,749 Posts 761 Achievements |
Sorry but I'm tired, but I find it rude to say that I am leaving a debate because "it's not going my way" I also find it rude to infer that because I have religious beliefs that I don't believe or respect science. And you had quite a bit of sarcasm in your arguments intended or not.
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| #19 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 4:58 AM | |
| temporaryplaceholder is a DANCING QUEEN 1,607 Posts 329 Achievements |
@Blu, calm down. I was not intending to be "rude," but when you talk about being "done for now" and settling on some "I believe x, you believe y, we don't agree, the end" stalemate of course I am going to presume that you're leaving because things aren't going your way. There is no need to get so crapty. As for the rest, I won't bother trying to form an argument. Too much sarcasm for me to sift through. Sarcasm is only welcomed in small doses on the debate forum... and part of the rules says you shouldn't use it.
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| #20 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 4:58 AM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
@Blu
I don't think unintended sarcasm is a thing. Sarcasm is when you say the exact opposite of what you really mean in such a way that your real meaning is apparent, whether through making your words extreme (like you did above) or through tone of voice. Anyway, I'm going to assume you're still in the debate, or at least that others want your points responded to. Quote: But first because you've thrown out so many lovely analogies I'll throw out my own. There is an ant that was placed in a box, and the ant doesn't care how it got in the box and doesn't care whats outside the box. Its just an ant in a box. And then the ant has baby ants and the baby ants have other baby ants and eventually one of them is born smart enough to dig/chew a hole through the box and explore the world beyond. It's the same as people, eventually we invented telescopes and developed technologically/scientifically to answer some questions, like "what's with this box?" and "what's outside of it?" Meanwhile, some other ants are happy playing around and will only believe in the person who put them in the box when they see that person. I mean, if I was certain that there was someone outside my house stalking me and I had zero evidence to support this, I'd be called paranoid or worse. If I pointed to a tree and said the complexity of it proves that aliens were here thousands of years ago, I'd be called crazy or worse. If I was sick and my doctor couldn't immediately diagnose it, I'd be given psychiatric treatment for insisting that the illness is a curse from my gypsy enemies. Jumping to baseless conclusions because the reasonable routes are complicated is ludicrous, and the only reason it's allowed in religion is because irrationality defends itself with claims to "sacredness." People are allowed to get angry when the ridiculousness of their beliefs is noted because it "means so much to them", right? Well, logic means so much to me that I don't really give a crap about those hurt feelings.
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| #21 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 5:07 AM | |
| Blu The Helper 1,749 Posts 761 Achievements |
Sarcasm is in my nature admittedly sometimes its hard to hold back. I am sorry and will tone it down, or keep my comments to myself. @BlocksBlocksBlocks Says the person who isn't interested in how everything started in the first place. Its narrow to believe that you know everything that there couldn't possibly be any intelligent force outside of our universe. I'm not talking about aliens or other life on different planets. A belief in a God, a creator is just as ludicrous as your belief in none. We don't know what is outside of our universe, how can we fully rule out a God?
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| #22 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 5:26 AM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
@Blu
I can fully rule one out because of what I said here: http://www.subeta.net/forums/goto/13138445 I'm not a theologian or a scientist, I'm a rhetorician. For me the principles of rhetoric are pretty much applicable to any situation. So basically, I'm certain there is no god because that's the default setting of my brain (and all others, we're all born without religion). I need proof to change my beliefs and no one has ever given me proof. Our limited collective human knowledge is constantly expanding. We can know more things for certain, with empirical evidence, in the future. I mean, until someone captures/kills a sasquatch, it's logically and scientifically sound to be confident they don't exist. If that ever happens, I'll gladly retract my anti-sasquatch statements -- this is why atheists are NOT narrow-minded, unlike religious types. We're open to any evidence you want to present on behalf of gods' or sasquatches' existence.
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| #23 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 11:45 AM | |
| TITANIUM Donated to the Cash Shop 259 Posts 159 Achievements |
Wow, I missed a lot last night...
@Blu Quote: We don't know what is outside of our universe, how can we fully rule out a God? Honestly, I don't think that's possible. Even with all the advancements in science that have pretty much disproved many biblical tales that the church claims are fact, some people still believe that Noah fit every species of animal on his ark, some people still believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old, and some people still believe that a man could survive being swallowed by a giant fish...or was it a whale? (Just the examples in the Christian bible, as that's the only holy book I am familiar with.) Anyway, despite the knowledge gained that refutes all of these stories, people still believe them. And even those who look at the bible as a collection of metaphors to teach life lessons, I'm sure their faith in a god is much stronger than in a book of disproven tales. So, even if religious followers are presented with concrete, undeniable evidence that there is no god, I still don't think that many would lose their faith and acknowledge the science behind our creation and the science that has kept our world going. That's why I don't agree with the 'sacredness' of religion. It keeps people from looking beyond a god and it seems to prevent them from even considering any other options as to how events in the world occur. Just because science hasn't figured out all of the answers does not mean that there is a god. For example, early humans would pray to the gods for certain weather because they believed that the gods controlled the skies. In the modern day, we know now how weather works and we understand what factors influence certain conditions. We know its a not a god that controls weather. So, when people give a god credit, so to speak, for coincidences or events that were likely to occur anyway, I get a little confused. No, I do not believe it is a god that cures cancer. There is always the chance that cancer could go into remission on its own. The next time someone's amputated limb grows back, then maybe I'll start believing in a divine powers. But you could pray a lifetime for that to happen, and it won't because it's scientifically and biologically impossible. As for atheists being narrow-minded, I was raised a Catholic, and from the age of 5 until about 14, I attended church on a weekly basis plus about seven years of religious education. For the most part, I believed what I was told. (Though I always considered the bible stories more like bed time stories. And I always felt a little silly while praying, even at a young age.) It wasn't until I got older that I grew very skeptical and very angry with the teachings of my religion. It wasn't my disbelief in a god that caused this, it was a bible reading that told women to be submissive to their husbands. It really opened my eyes to how archaic and irrelevent the bible is to modern life and it spurred me to research other stories in the bible and realize that I did not agree with many of its lessons. Through out the years, I graudally came to the conclusion that there was no god. So, I've walked down the religious path. I've been there and I've experienced that side of it. It's not narrow-minded for me to look to science for answers instead of critisizing science for not having every single one and turning instead to a god who provides none.
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| #24 :: June 19th, 2010 @ 7:46 PM | |
| Blu The Helper 1,749 Posts 761 Achievements |
ONCE AGAIN I WILL RESTATE THAT I AM NOT CRITICIZING SCIENCE. And I'm not talking about the Bible I'm talking about a God.
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| #25 :: June 20th, 2010 @ 2:46 AM | |
Newbie  0 Posts 691 Achievements |
Genesis 1:1- In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Evolution 1:1- In the beginning there was nothing, then it EXPLODED! hmm, which takes more faith to believe 
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| #26 :: June 20th, 2010 @ 2:02 PM | |
| temporaryplaceholder is a DANCING QUEEN 1,607 Posts 329 Achievements |
@ Quote: Genesis 1:1- In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. No. Fail, 0/10, do not pass go, diaf. You need serious re-education to be able to assert opinions on the BBT and you should refrain from speaking such ignorance in public where you may lead others astray. NEITHER of these options is a possibility. Note: I am not really saying we don't know either way, simply that they're both 100% wrong. First one: contradiction in terms. "In the beginning, God..." Oh? How is that the beginning if God already exists? Second one: false. "Nothing" cannot explode. Physicists believe the universe's creation started from the explosion of a gravitational singularity. Also- evolution is about speciation through natural selection, not universes exploding. That is cosmogenisis. Evolution is fact, and to imply otherwise, is a grave mistake on your behalf. Target the theories your disagreements directly relate to, don't drag down another by slapping it's name onto something irrelevant. Not only this, your entire method is just stupid. Simply put, all you need to do is open your window and look outside to know that the universe's creation wasn't a simple matter... you can't just judge 2 random suggestions by which one seems "easier."
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| #27 :: June 20th, 2010 @ 2:08 PM | |
| TITANIUM Donated to the Cash Shop 259 Posts 159 Achievements |
@
Although knowledge about the Big Bang is still very limited, it shouldn't be overlooked just because we don't have all the answers yet. Like I said before, there was a time when we we thought gods controlled weather. Does that mean we should never have studied weather because the answer clearly pointed to a god? The theory of evolution doesn't take faith to believe, it takes facts and evidence, which it is able to provide or it wouldn't be considered valid in the scientific community. What I find hard to understand is how you look at the Big Bang theory as ridiculous, yet the idea of some all powerful man in the sky simply willing the Earth to exist is completely plausible. I wonder if a child was raised with the Big Bang theory incorporated into his religion, would that child view it as sacred and accurate as you do the creationist viewpoint?
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| #28 :: December 8th, 2010 @ 12:36 AM | |
| Evenni Is Lonely  212 Posts 77 Achievements |
I approve of this thread! Religion shouldn't be any more sacred than any other subject, really. I can't say much more that hasn't already been said.
Quote By @ Genesis 1:1- In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Ignoring the fails in your post (of which there are a lot in proportion to how little you typed), the one that takes more blind faith would be the God thing. cleared by staff, oversized |
| #29 :: December 11th, 2010 @ 10:34 PM | |
 SavageGets Around  825 Posts 445 Achievements |
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| #30 :: January 6th, 2011 @ 11:21 PM | |
| Nhyra Silly Spamming Sausage  426 Posts 179 Achievements |
@BlocksBlocksBlocks While religion has been used and unfortunately misused, the fact is that many people, be they radical or not, have a very strong attachment to their beliefs. More often than not, a person's choice of religion carries is a very strong and personal bond. It's very sensitive, and because of this a simple debate can easily cause someone distress. I'm trying to think of an analogy here, it's like someone insulting a favorite band. It's not the fact the subject as a complete and utter whole is sacred, but it is sacred to the people who practice it. I'm a bit scatterbrained right now, if I'm being confusing I'll try to reiterate myself.My deviantART. Last Edit by:
Nhyra 1/06/11 - 11:25:49 pm
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| #31 :: January 7th, 2011 @ 1:48 AM | |
| BlocksBlocksBlocks The Doctor 1,600 Posts 717 Achievements |
@Nhyra
I understand that people feel this way about things other than religion -- we've all heard the stories of like, rabid Twi-hards getting violent over people criticizing the books* -- but that's not something I experience anymore. I mean, I used to get angry when someone would say "Spice Girls suck!" or "The Moffatts are all gay with each other!" or whatever, but then I turned thirteen and realized it doesn't matter what other people say about my favourite things. I'm not saying I like it when I hear something I love being insulted. I'm just saying that I would never tell someone not to insult whatever it is, because they're entitled to their opinions. The only time I think it's inappropriate for someone to criticize something personal, like religious beliefs or politics or something of that nature, is when that person is in a position of authority. Like, I've had profs who think it's OK to bash conservative politicians in lectures and it strikes me as crossing a line. That isn't because those topics are sacred though... more because they're things people can feel (or really be) discriminated against for. I mean, if I were a teacher, I wouldn't mock religion in the classroom because my students shouldn't feel like I'm judging them on those grounds. Other than those situations though, I really think people should just suck it up and understand that everything is ridiculous/wrong/stupid to someone. And that's OK. * Not to get off-topic, but I'm a Twilight fan. I'm the last person who would insult all Twilight fans; I'm just noting the presence of fanatical readers.
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| #32 :: January 7th, 2011 @ 12:05 PM | |
| ShadowFoxKitfox Gets Around  2,228 Posts 607 Achievements |
@BlocksBlocksBlocks I think it has a lot to do with connotations attached to the events/objects/dates/etc. The idea that you should "keep the sabbath holy" is because the bible tells you to. What it basically says is 'set a day aside' and also due to the bible's "if you work on the sabbath you should be killed" viewpoint, I would like to think it means that the day you have set aside should be for recreation. Makes sense for people to have time off of work, though our 'leisure' time is organized differently now (8 hours for work, 8 hours for sleep, and 8 hours for what we will...approximately) Holidays, especially religious ones all have a sacred version. Christmas, Easter, Mardi Gras & Lent, etc. Many have been secularized, and so can be celebrated without the religious connotations. I grew up with Easter meaning fun chocolate and egg hunts. Christmas being a time for meeting family that lives in other towns and states, along with getting and exchanging presents. tl;dr : I think things are sacred do to their (often religious) connotations. No other reason. It falls to the belief system to determine what is sacred to someone. <- Ruby --------------------------------------- (ping ICly with #Odel) Odel Ninecry -> Female player, male character. Problem? Dance with ShadowFoxKitfox"Take me down to the Paragon City where the Trolls are green and the-...."
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| #33 :: January 8th, 2011 @ 9:50 AM | |
| Nhyra Silly Spamming Sausage 426 Posts 179 Achievements |
Quote By @BlocksBlocksBlocks: @Nhyra Everybody is going to have their own feelings about something one way or another, and yes, people can have their own opinions. But they need to be respected. I'm sorry if I'm reading you wrong here, but it look like you just look down or religion because you don't follow it. You can have your own opinion, yes, but if you're being disrespectful of others just because they don't agree with you, that's not a matter of you challenging something sacred, you're just being rude.My deviantART. Last Edit by:
Nhyra 1/08/11 - 12:32:01 pm
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| #34 :: January 8th, 2011 @ 12:22 PM | |
| temporaryplaceholder is a DANCING QUEEN 1,607 Posts 329 Achievements |
Quote By @Nhyra: Everybody is going to have their own feelings about something one way or another, and yes, people can have their own opinions. But they need to be respected. Do you mean to say that people should be respected, or that opinions are to be respected?
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| #35 :: January 8th, 2011 @ 12:29 PM | |
| Nhyra Silly Spamming Sausage 426 Posts 179 Achievements |
Quote By @temporaryplaceholder: Do you mean to say that people should be respected, or that opinions are to be respected? People. My deviantART. Last Edit by:
Nhyra 1/08/11 - 12:31:17 pm
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| #36 :: January 8th, 2011 @ 12:59 PM | |
| temporaryplaceholder is a DANCING QUEEN 1,607 Posts 329 Achievements |
@Nhyra, Ok, I agree in that regard; we should hold an intrinsic respect to other individuals as a means of getting along and all that jazz. I believe opinions on the other hand, should be judged rather than respected. However, respect cannot last forever! The intrinsic respect we grant to individuals cannot exceed that which their opinions shed from them. ie, when we DO start judging their opinions... we eventually have to start increasing our respect if we find their opinions valid, or decreasing it if they are morally reprehensible. You do not continue to respect someone who is a moral psychopath, who's opinions are consistently wrong and actions lead to unfavorable consequences. To do so is simply a means of abdicating moral responsibilities; to offer someone their "moral blank cheque" of respect in turn for your own "moral blank cheque." I agree with your statement "but if you're being disrespectful of others just because they don't agree with you, that's not a matter of you challenging something sacred, you're just being rude" but what if you are not? What if I carefully criticized religion not simply for differing opinion, but because I found parts of it that are contradictory and wrong? Should I then still be expected to still respect someone? If so, why? Last Edit by:
temporaryplaceholder 1/08/11 - 11:46:32 pm
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| #37 :: January 8th, 2011 @ 1:21 PM | |
| Lypsyl Is a Master Chef!  9,542 Posts 1,249 Achievements |
Quote By @Nhyra:
I was just about to post essentially the same argument that @temporaryplaceholder just did. Why do I have to respect someone's opinion if they say something ridiculous? Granted, in a debate if you do nothing but insult someone, they aren't going to listen and one should use tact. But that doesn't mean there is any respect involved. For example, if you try to claim the Earth is flat, I'm not going to respect you or your opinion.
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| #38 :: January 9th, 2011 @ 2:05 PM | |
| Nhyra Silly Spamming Sausage 426 Posts 179 Achievements |
Quote By @temporaryplaceholder:
What if I carefully criticized religion not simply for differing opinion, but because I found parts of it that are contradictory and wrong? Should I then still be expected to still respect someone? If so, why? Wait wait, are you saying that is someone holds an opinion different than you, you will automatically begin to lose respect for them? Granted there are some opinions which are foolish, like Lypsyl said about the Earth being flat, but what about religion? Religion isn't a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of personal choice. Granted "opinion" might not have been the best word to relate it to. My mistake.My deviantART.
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| #39 :: January 9th, 2011 @ 11:38 PM | |
| temporaryplaceholder is a DANCING QUEEN 1,607 Posts 329 Achievements |
Quote: Wait wait, are you saying that is someone holds an opinion different than you, you will automatically begin to lose respect for them? @Nhyra, no. I tried to make that clear in my last paragraph but I'll try again. See the problem is, fundamentally all questions about the nature of the universe have one correct group of answers. One of two opposing parties is right, and the other is wrong. For example it is not a "choice" to believe there is a god. There either is or there isn't; one is either wrong or correct. I do not disrespect someone for a different opinion. I disrespect them for the wrong opinion. The lifestyle practices of religion are to some extent just personal preference, yes. However lifestyle practices are only one part of the story for most religions, particularly the major ones. They also make statements about fundamental philosophical principles, and also, that of science; the nature of the universe. It is here where religion has hit more "wrong" answers than almost any other institution. In these cases, religion IS a matter of intelligence, and it here where I must shed my respect for anyone who believes such things. And when someone has far, far too many of these wrong opinions in a consistent manner, eventually I'm not going to keep shedding respect from them- I simply wont have any at all.
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| #40 :: January 10th, 2011 @ 1:35 AM | |
| Nhyra Silly Spamming Sausage 426 Posts 179 Achievements |
@temporaryplaceholder
Alright, I see what you mean now. I agree with you on religion being incorrect in terms of evolution, space, etc. And honestly I'd lose respect for someone pretty quickly if they denied them as well. However, what about the basic point of there being a god, since it's possible to feel there is a higher power without believing that we just spontaneously "appeared" or a man had two of every animal on an Ark? Also, there's the fact of how long ago many of these religions were founded long before our current scientific abilities.As we continue to progress, I understand the need to accept evolution and plate tectonics, but I see nothing wrong with believing in a god as we haven't proved/disproved it. People interpret their religions differently, and they can be shifted to accompany the times and science without being "wrong".My deviantART.
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