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C R E A T E A D |
I have to accept you, but you don't have to accept me?
| #1 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 12:55 AM | |
 SuzakuAttended a Subeta Meetup!    760 Posts 581 Achievements  
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So, I'll openly say it: I disapprove of homosexuality. I refuse to use the word "homophobic", because I'm not "afraid" of homosexuality. I don't *hate* gay people, in fact, I have gay friends. I just disapprove of the concept.
Some homosexuals at my school think that I'm wrong for disapproving of their lifestyle (I use the word 'lifestyle' for lack of a better term). They want me to stop "being homophobic", despite the fact that I often tell them my views are pretty much of a "don't force me into your way of thinking" sort. Then, after demanding that I stop disapproving of their lifestyle, they turn around and start insulting Christians and the Christian religion. Woah, wait a minute! So it's not okay for me to disapprove of homosexuality, even though I choose not to insult you or your views... but you can openly and blatantly insult my religion without seeing it as being wrong? The way I see it, it's tit-for-tat. If you're going to disrespect my religion, I might be inclined to disrespect your lifestyle. You may argue that homosexuality is "not a choice", and religion is. But isn't that really the same as insulting a woman for being a woman, then insulting a man who had a sex change to become a woman? Thoughts? Am I wrong for expecting people to give me the same respect they want me to show them?
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| #2 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:10 AM | |
 FaruzahThe Gourmand  5,725 Posts 834 Achievements |
@Suzaku
Generally when you tell someone you disapprove of something that they can't control they don't view that as being respectful. @shatzy is debate or general chat/doging? Hard to tell here.
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| #3 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:13 AM | |
| Nightwing is a DANCING QUEEN  5,376 Posts 810 Achievements |
 Being trans (or gay, for that matter) is not a choice like religion is. Not even comparable in my book. If you bear the "born that way" opinion, that those who are trans are born that way and have no choice, then it isn't comparable to the choice of your religion. Alternatively, some people view it as a mental illness, and in that case... it still isn't a choice, and thus is still not comparable. If you're only talking about the actual physical transition, then it still holds it's root in either of the previous. (I will say, I don't have much understanding on this subject. If someone more knowledgeable comes along, please correct me.) I think there should be a certain amount of respect, yes. Ultimately, Christianity is condemning any sexuality besides hetero and that does offend people, no matter what, and is seen by many as ultimately being disrespectful. Thus, people react on that. I don't think that gives people the right to insult you for being Christian, though. I think there should be a "live and let live" attitude between people - as long as nobody is being hurt, constrained, or forced into something (within reason, I guess, it'd be a whole other huge discussion about what this could mean), then to each his own. People may not agree, but they have to deal with it, and it'd be better for everybody if "dealing with it" was done as civilly as possible. Eta, you are homophobic, because homophobia is a spectrum of negative attitudes towards homosexuality, not just fear. Disapproving is considered negative. Last Edit by: User not found (1): Nonnie 3/02/11 - 1:18:54 am
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| #4 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:15 AM | |
| Wanyuudo Member  21 Posts 35 Achievements |
You...disapprove homosexuality? Do elaborate.
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| #5 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:22 AM | |
| poseidon Is Lonely  4,448 Posts 153 Achievements |
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| #6 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:24 AM | |
| Faruzah The Gourmand 5,725 Posts 834 Achievements |
@Morphine
People can be wrong all they want (I'm not sure why that would want to be the best you can achieve for yourself) but they do not have a right to act that wrongness out on others. Disagree with it =/= crap all over that person for part of what makes them who they are.
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| #7 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:23 AM | |
| Garnet is a Skilled Hooker  8,112 Posts 1,054 Achievements |
I think that if LGBTs leave the Christians alone then the Christians should leave the LGBTs alone. People don't have to like the fact that there are orientations out there different than their own, but we can all peacefully coexist without getting into the "I think it's wrong/weird/unnatural/whatever" debates. Edit: For fear of sounding like I'm making broad, sweeping generalizations, let me clarify that I don't think ALL LGBTs are fine with Christianity. I'm sure there are just as many out there who dislike Christianity as there are Christian who dislike/don't agree with homosexuality. What I was getting at is a general "we should ALL just accept each other, regardless of what side of this particular argument we're on" idea. Last Edit by: User not found (1): ArtistInTheAmbulance 3/02/11 - 1:26:40 am
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| #8 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:25 AM | |
| shippo162 Tongue Wagger  2,009 Posts 500 Achievements |
Honestly, I don't think people should try and force anyone to "like" homosexuality.. Just ignore it. :I Like, seriously. As long as you're not fighting against gay marriage rights, bashing them, or avoiding them in any form, then it's all fine with me if you secretly disapprove.
I don't really like Christianity, but I don't talk about it. If it's brought up, I keep my mouth shut until asked, and then politely mention that I'm not one and that's about all I'll say. I'm not one, because I dislike some of the religion (not all of it, but enough of it to know that I just /couldn't/ be a Christian, it's like putting the "peas" label on the "carrots" can. It's still carrots in there.) However, I hold no problem with Christians, just specific parts of the religion. My grandmother was a Christian for almost her whole life (she's something else now.. The similar religion? Idk.) She and I are very close and have a great relationship, we even discuss religion from time to time. There's nothing wrong with her having been a Christian. Join the Subeta Food Swap! |
| #9 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:25 AM | |
| poseidon Is Lonely 4,448 Posts 153 Achievements |
I never said it did mean that, but I understand where you're coming from.
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| #10 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:26 AM | |
| Imperial is a Sun-Worshipper  4,592 Posts 448 Achievements |
 I think the better term is, you should earn respect. If you go around telling people you don't like the "gay lifestyle" then obviously people are going to retaliate. It's a sensitive subject for a lot of people, and they're going to get defensive about it. As cliche and cheesy as this saying is, I believe it comes well into play here - "treat people as to how you want to be treated." Ie; if you're going to call people out and say that you disapprove of their sexuality they're going to come back and bite you in the ass for being a Christian.
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| #11 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:27 AM | |
| Faruzah The Gourmand 5,725 Posts 834 Achievements |
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| #12 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:29 AM | |
| poseidon Is Lonely 4,448 Posts 153 Achievements |
It's fine. d: I'm a bit loose today, so If I sounded a bit snappy, I apologize.
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| #13 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:29 AM | |
| Sui Is a Master Chef!  9,198 Posts 1,057 Achievements |
This is rather hard to see as a "debate." You may disapprove of something all you want, it just depends on how you present it. If you make comments, faces, protest it, then you are showing a form of disrespect. As for them disrespecting your religion... How so ? Are they speaking poorly as the religion as a whole, or just a group of them ? For instance, I detest ignorant people. I have stated that I dislike Bible-thumping Christians that tell me I need to change who I am just because I do not fit into their pretty little perfect box (I am a vastly sinful person I guess). Is that disrespectful to you ? Are YOU one of those ? I don't want you to actually answer this, as your religion is your religion and your views are your views. But say I said "I loveing hate all Christians." Well, then, that is disrespectful to you no matter the situation. So it comes to: is it individual dislike or is it as a whole ? If it is as a whole, I would tell them as such. I would tell them that if they want others to accept them, then they should accept others.
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| #14 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:38 AM | |
| Wanyuudo Member 21 Posts 35 Achievements |
There seem to be some assumptions being made. I mean, not every Christian strictly adheres to the dogma of the religion and wait, where does it say that Christians reject homosexuality for that matter? O.o
The way I see it, your main problem is respect. It's fine to dislike what you will and you have the freedom to voice your opinion, but that also means you deal with the consequences. And your seemingly "neutral" stance can be called into question depending on one's views. By choosing to use the word "lifestyle" you open up a window for argument. People are raised differently, have varied opinions after all and this is one of the contributing factors to conflict.
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| #15 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:42 AM | |
| Nightwing is a DANCING QUEEN 5,376 Posts 810 Achievements |
The most common interpretation of Christianity is that it condemns homosexuality, so that's probably what most people are talking about. It all depends on the branch. ♥ tumblr | art ping | credit | style file | chic |
| #16 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 1:45 AM | |
| Wanyuudo Member 21 Posts 35 Achievements |
Hnnnn. I see.
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| #17 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 3:09 AM | |
| Suzaku Attended a Subeta Meetup! 760 Posts 581 Achievements |
It's not so much that I'm like "EW, GAY-NESS". It actually started out like this (trufax):
Gay friend: So, I'm happy. I was in an orgy last night. Me: Could we NOT be talking about orgies? No offense, it disgusts me. Random Gay Person: *misinterprets it to mean I'm referring to homosexuality disgusting me* It's perfectly natural. Me: Natural or not, massive guy-on-guy action just doesn't do it for me. And it REALLY doesn't need to be discussed. RGP: Oh, so you're anti-gay. Me: No, I'm anti-talking-about-orgies-in-public. But if it'll steer this conversation away from orgies, I just don't approve of homosexuality as a concept. It's not so much that it's against my religion (although it kinda is), it's a long story and the bottom line is it's my decision what to approve of and what not to. RGP: *insert tirade against homophobia and Christianity, eventually going on about how (and I quote) "Christians are just stupid. They hate everyone who goes against their outdated little world. They need to go jump off a cliff." * Or how about: Friend: You're a Christian? What denomination? Me: Lutheran... Random Gay Person #2: *butting into conversation he was not a part of* That's the WORST kind! Me: Um... why? RGP#2: Because they're the most ignorant of all. They're the anti-gay-rights, burn-the-witch kind. Friend (who happens to be Wiccan): I haven't been burned at the stake yet. RGP#2: Yeah, but you will be if the Lutherans have their way.
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| #18 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 3:39 AM | |
| Blu The Helper  1,749 Posts 761 Achievements |
 Being gay isn't a choice, it isn't really a "lifestyle choice" unless you believe being completely chaste throughout your entire life is an option. I think your friends would like to be accepted for who they are just like you are automatically accepted for who you are. If homosexual sex is what you look down upon just tell your friends you'd rather not talk about SEX and don't bring up someone's sexual preference.
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| #19 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 4:35 AM | |
| Wanyuudo Member 21 Posts 35 Achievements |
The majority of intelligent people are open minded and knowledgeable enough to not fall into thinking in sweeping generalizations about people based on their beliefs. They observe and come to their own views on how someone is like through interactions etc. Ethnocentricism and the like are not as prevalent in such people. I personally don't see homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. If so, I could choose to be right now, just like I can choose to sprout wings and fly into the sun.
Your friends are free to have their own thoughts about things just as you are free to think your own, and as am I. Whether they are "right" is anybody's guess. I could say that I believe Jesus Christ tore the wings off his elder brother because he was jealous of his brother's people and was sent to earth to serve as penance. Who's to say that this does not have merit?
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| #20 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 6:51 AM | |
| temporaryplaceholder is a DANCING QUEEN  1,607 Posts 329 Achievements |
 Quote: You may argue that homosexuality is "not a choice", and religion is. But isn't that really the same as insulting a woman for being a woman, then insulting a man who had a sex change to become a woman? I have no idea how you are trying to use this argument- and in fact such a point is best used against you rather than for you. The root issue in this point is not "insulting" gays, it is implying that they have made the wrong choice. That is, it is implying morality where morals are not possible. If something is not a choice- they cannot make the "wrong" choice; that is simply a paradox. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either homosexuality is a choice- in which case you must provide reasons to judge it, or it is not a choice, in which case you're therefore in no position to judge it's morality to begin with. What's it gonna be? Quote: The way I see it, it's tit-for-tat. If you're going to disrespect my religion, I might be inclined to disrespect your lifestyle. I disagree. Judgement of others is not something to be done by passing out moral "blank cheques" where you respect me, and I respect you. You have to provide me a cause to respect you, and vice-versa, if you want to disrespect me, you have to have a valid cause. Disrespecting someone for something they have no say in and no choice, is not a valid cause. Disrespecting someone for believing in illogical non-sense they can't even prove or demonstrate, is. Just to be clear; that is not to say one should not have tolerance, however I do not believe tolerance and respect to be one in the same. Tolerance is dealing with it, leaving it be. Respect is to hold in high regard.
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| #21 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 8:50 AM | |
| shatzy Subeta Elder  10,764 Posts 992 Achievements |
 @Suzaku if you dislike gay sex, you shouldn't have to have it put in your face. period. as previously suggested, simply ask not to speak about sex in general and there should be nothing you find offensive. however, is the gay sex what you find offensive? or in addition, do you also dislike the hand holding, kissing, cuddling, or other relationship-related activity? i think this is significant to answer within yourself. however i definitely agree that you should tolerate other people's choices regardless of how unfair it may seem to you concerning potential hypocrisy. why become the character traits you dislike simply out of spite? keeping a tit-for-tat attitude or justification for your behavior is NOT going to turn out well for you in the end. becoming the model of personal respect would be. on the whole, no one should have to swallow something they dislike or disapprove of -- however like previously mentioned, as long as this belief doesn't spawn negative action, i don't see the problem. since it appears to be creating a negative attitude, it's certainly unacceptable, imo.
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| #22 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 2:54 PM | |
| Wanyuudo Member 21 Posts 35 Achievements |
@temporaryplaceholder I'm of the opinion that culture and environment should be of some relevance to considering things of an illogical nature. But anyhow, I do agree with your post. It's clear and easily understood.
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| #23 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 4:19 PM | |
| Sui Is a Master Chef! 9,198 Posts 1,057 Achievements |
I'd have said the same thing regarding orgies. Call me anti-gay all you want, but... Ew. I do think you worded yourself badly, however, in regards in stating how you dislike homosexuality as a "concept." Something more of a "I respect peoples choices, but the sexual act puts me off. Personal preference of somebody heterosexual, no?" The random homo was a moron, though, from what you have stated. And I most likely would have slapped them (no, don't go slapping them. Only another queer can "get away with it"). I have completely lost my train of thought, so I am ending it there. XD
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| #24 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 4:31 PM | |
| Wanyuudo Member 21 Posts 35 Achievements |
@Sui Your wording of that makes it seem as if gay people either have orgies on a regular basis or are the only ones to participate in such things. That is probably not the case.
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| #25 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 4:36 PM | |
| Sui Is a Master Chef! 9,198 Posts 1,057 Achievements |
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| #26 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 5:08 PM | |
| Firebolt Made a Living   9,985 Posts 486 Achievements |
Quote: I just disapprove of the concept. Can...you explain that?
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| #27 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 5:17 PM | |
| Pinto is Shady  5,757 Posts 522 Achievements |
you're not forbidden from being a christian. think about that for a second. I don't think respect is the right word here, I think it's tolerance. I might not respect your decisions, but I'll tolerate them. I go to a single-sex college [I'm perfectly straight thanks] and this is always a big issue here. The glbtq community want inclusion. They want the same rights as everyone else, and not to be persecuted for their actions or beliefs. Your friends were wrong to say what they did about Lutherans, especially seeing as how in Sweden, [where a large portion of the population is Lutheran] gay marriage has been legal for 2 years. But you also need to think. You can be against homosexuality in general, but you have to realize that is does exist. The issue here is tolerance. They might not like your lifestyle choices, you might not like theirs. But you have to live with them, and they have to live with your decisions. As it stands now, the glbtq community is being hugely persecuted, mostly by religious organizations. What I think needs to happen is a mutual understanding that nobody will ever be happy, no one will ever win, so lets agree to disagree, pass a non-discriminatory marriage law, and move on. @temporaryplaceholder Said it more eloquently than I did, totally agree w/ everything you said.  Last Edit by:
Pinto 3/02/11 - 5:20:11 pm |
buying 
| #28 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 5:30 PM | |
| ghost Is Lonely  4,216 Posts 543 Achievements |
ain't it a fine life @Suzaku It's wrong that they disrespect your religion, but it's also illogical that you "disapprove" of homosexuality - that's like disapproving of someone's naturally brown hair. It's not something that can be helped or chosen. And I'm not disrespecting your faith here, just pointing out that it doesn't really make sense for you to disapprove of it in a person because it's not a behavioral thing, it's a... sexual thing, a natural thing, you know? However, your disapproval of gays still doesn't mean that they should insult your faith. let your worries go
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| #29 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 7:42 PM | |
| BuizelDragon Is a Survivor  306 Posts 388 Achievements |
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| #30 :: March 2nd, 2011 @ 8:15 PM | |
| otterandfox Only has Room for One  26 Posts 112 Achievements |
 Quote By @BuizelDragon: Well this got me wondering.... If you don't respect their life, why do you think they would give you any respect? It's like telling someone that you think they are the ugliest person on the earth and expecting them to compliment you and thank you... It's a two way street and you started driving down the wrong side. @Suzaku I agree with most of the above; if you tell people you disapprove with their sexuality, you've gotta expect them to disapprove of not only your disapproval, but your reasons for disapproving. :/ If what they're doing is not simply telling you which parts of your beliefs they think are wrong and/or disagree with, and they're actually attacking your faith, then that's not cool. But that should mean they lose your respect as tactful human beings, not that you should hold some kind of grudge against all homosexuals because some might've dissed your beliefs. I mean, I disapprove of people judging others by their own personal beliefs, but I'm not going to start anything about it or insult anyone, it's just how I feel :/ I don't even announce it. But if I did, I would expect to be countered, be it with insults or intellectual discussion. 
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| #31 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 1:03 PM | |
| PeanutButter Silly Spamming Sausage  362 Posts 86 Achievements |
@Suzaku Last Edit by:
PeanutButter 3/04/11 - 1:19:38 pm
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| #32 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 1:59 PM | |
| JESSYTA Is the Richest User  17,635 Posts 1,311 Achievements |
 Quote By @Suzaku: You may argue that homosexuality is "not a choice", and religion is. But isn't that really the same as insulting a woman for being a woman, then insulting a man who had a sex change to become a woman?Having a sex change is still a choice. A person may feel that they should have been born the other sex, that is like being born a woman. Deciding to have yourself altered is a choice, much like a woman deciding to increase the size of the breasts she was born with. So you refuse to respect a person's sexual preference, which isn't a choice... but then expect to be treated with respect by those same people regarding the religion you decided to follow. Treat others as you'd like to be treated. You are in the wrong here.
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| #33 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 2:39 PM | |
| PeanutButter Silly Spamming Sausage 362 Posts 86 Achievements |
@JESSYTA
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| #34 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 3:37 PM | |
| JESSYTA Is the Richest User 17,635 Posts 1,311 Achievements |
@PeanutButter Something that you choose to do is a choice by definition. It doesn't matter if you think it's not fair to call it a choice, it IS a choice.
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| #35 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 3:46 PM | |
| PeanutButter Silly Spamming Sausage 362 Posts 86 Achievements |
@JESSYTA
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| #36 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 3:50 PM | |
| JESSYTA Is the Richest User 17,635 Posts 1,311 Achievements |
@PeanutButter Choosing to ignore that they are homosexual doesn't mean their sexuality is a choice. It's one thing to FEEL a certain way. We all feel a certain way. Some of us act on those feelings, others do not, still others act on their feelings but not in the same way. Acting on your feelings is a choice. If you use the word 'choose' it's a choice. It's simple semantics, nothing to do with "fairness".
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| #37 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 4:03 PM | |
| stijn The Doctor  13,350 Posts 755 Achievements |
@Suzaku
what kind of immature child are you? hating on their sexuality simply because they disapprove of your religion? (oh wait, it's also because you disapprove of the CONCEPT of homosexuality.) What is this 'concept'? I find the idea and practice of homosexuality absolutely disgusting. I also know that I am not a homosexual, and therefor can in no way know how actual homosexuals feel. Choice or not (obviously not, ever taken a biology class or are you one of those brainwashed kids who think the earth is 8000 years old (and flat)?), we are to respect each other and let each other be. Choices are for everyone to make, and the only choice a homosexual has is to hide who they are or not. People like you are making the world an increasingly unpleasant place. join #stijn |
| #38 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 4:19 PM | |
| PeanutButter Silly Spamming Sausage 362 Posts 86 Achievements |
Quote By @JESSYTA: Having a sex change is still a choice. A person may feel that they should have been born the other sex, that is like being born a woman. Deciding to have yourself altered is a choice, much like a woman deciding to increase the size of the breasts she was born with. I know it's not a choice, but in order to disrespect a person because of their sexuality I'm assuming they've CHOSEN to make their sexuality public. Therefore, I don't understand why you are mentioning transexuality as a different thing. I don't really agree with the way the OP made that comparison... Quote By @Suzaku: You may argue that homosexuality is "not a choice", and religion is. But isn't that really the same as insulting a woman for being a woman, then insulting a man who had a sex change to become a woman? ...However, tranSEXUALITY is also a type of sexuality, just like homoSEXUALITY. It's all to do with how you perceive your gender role & who you are sexually attracted to. I don't understand why everyone's trying to distinguish between the two of them?! A transexual man having a sex change to become a woman is no different to a homosexual person choosing to express their homosexuality. (sorry if this is all horrible worded and hard to understand... I may have even repeated myself. :| I'm trying to write it all while I'm on the phone. XD) also... Quote By @racist: Choice or not (obviously not, ever taken a biology class or are you one of those brainwashed kids who think the earth is 8000 years old (and flat)? 1) While many people these days tend to agree that homosexuality is caused by biological means, there's also the nature/nurture argument to consider and no one is CERTAIN of whether or not it is a choice. While I personally believe that a combination of exposure to hormones before birth and the way you are raised attributes you your sexuality and is it NOT a conscious choice, I do not presume I am 100% correct. Experts have been researching this and have still not been able to draw a definite conclusion, only a theory they are FAIRLY certain of. There may be many factors that are within or out of an individual's control which influence their sexuality, factors we cannot fully understand at this point in time. 2) Religious people don't believe the Earth is flat - that's what people used to believe in ye olde days when they didn't fully understand what the horizon was. 3) Religious people either believe the Earth is 6000 years old or they believe the bible is not to be taken literally and accept the scientific view on how old the world is. Last Edit by:
PeanutButter 3/04/11 - 4:31:33 pm
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| #39 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 4:29 PM | |
| JESSYTA Is the Richest User 17,635 Posts 1,311 Achievements |
@PeanutButter As I stated already, feeling a certain way is not a choice. Acting on those feelings are a choice. Just because a person chooses to be honest about their sexuality does not mean that their sexuality is a choice. Who they tell, and how they tell them is a choice, but even if they never told someone in their entire life, they would still be homosexuals. People aren't born believing in god. It's something they are taught, it's something they choose to believe and live their life by. That's why the OP is wrong to make the comparison that he or she did.
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| #40 :: March 4th, 2011 @ 4:35 PM | |
| PeanutButter Silly Spamming Sausage 362 Posts 86 Achievements |
@JESSYTA
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