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C R E A T E A D |
"Cannibal"
| #1 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 5:05 PM | |
 GreyishSkiesSubeta Luva   57 Posts 86 Achievements  
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(For starters, I hope I put this in the correct part of the Debate Forum. I assumed that since it had to do with controversy over an artist's work, it would be a psychological/cultural issue. Move or lock if necessary!)
So, here's what made me decide to start this topic. I was following links on youtube when I came across the song "Cannibal" by Ke$ha. The song is, like many of her others, a statement about her sexuality. However, in this song, she refers to her hyperactive sex drive using the metaphor that she is a literal Canibal who seeks out, kills, and eats men. At one point in the song, she even states that she's "gonna pull a Jeffrey Dahmer." Don't get me wrong, it's easy for me to understand how this would come off disturbing and frightening to some people. It's supposed to! The graphic imagery that she uses; drinking blood and eating livers, is likely why the song never made it onto the radio! I was well aware of this, but what really sparked my interest was a comment on the video that pointed out that if it had been a man singing about women in this manner, it would be considered dehumanizing, degrading, and promoting violence towards women (in other words, a double standard.) What do you guys think of this? Personally, I wouldn't feel dehumanized, degraded,or threatened if a male pop artist wrote a song with the same metaphor or compared himself to say, Jack the Ripper. I would recognize it as what it is, a clever metaphor/allusion. I certainly don't think that Ke$ha hates men or has any intent of killing one, and neither do I. On the flip side, however, I do feel offended when I hear pop artists refer to women as "whores", "doges", or "hoes," or when they sing about prostitution or domestic violence. Why? Because these things are degrading and entirely face value. There is no metaphor present, or any other literary or artistic twist. It is literally taking an actual person and referring to them in a derrogatory way. Ke$ha's "Cannibal" is an obvious symbol/metaphor, albeit incredibly gruesome. I don't think she intended to make an offensive or degrading generalization about men. And if a man had made a song similar to it, I'd probably be as fascinated by it as I am with Ke$ha's twist on it. That's my take on it, what do the rest of you make of this piece, if you've heard it? Also, I know that there are a lot of other social and cultural issues that play into the song's analysis, but try to keep it on topic!
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| #2 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 5:32 PM | |
| NozzALa Donated to the Cash Shop   307 Posts 198 Achievements |
@GreyishSkies Some double standards make sense. The reason a woman can get away with something like this but not a man is because men commit FAR more crimes overall than woman - the last statistic I heard was 5x more - so people are way less likely to take Ke$ha seriously when she sings about cannibalizing men than if a male pop artist was singing about cannibalizing women, because there are men that actually do and have done this in our society. And yes, if a man sang about it I'd probably think he was a Loving psychopath or at least had exceedingly poor taste. There are real world examples of men being physically and psychologically capable of this and finding it sexually pleasurable. If, however, Ke$ha's song was released following a news story about a female serial killer who cannibalized men for sexual pleasure, I'd be much more likely to find it in poor taste. Last Edit by:
NozzALa 11/28/11 - 5:36:32 pmcheck out my art blog | come get some free art!~ |
| #3 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 5:41 PM | |
| Magic Is the Pumpkin King!  4,652 Posts 577 Achievements |
 Anyway, I'm a little confused on what the debate here is. Are we saying that Ke$ha should not have made that song, or the fact that people would only think it's bad if it was sung by a male? The fact is, YES, people WOULD think it was bad if it was sung by a male (assuming lyrics were tweaked to fit what a male would sing, etc). Ke$ha's song is crass, sure, but it's clearly in good fun. She isn't seriously talking about murdering men. And YES, there is indeed a double standard about men and women mostly because the majority of attack and sex crimes are committed by men towards women. Screw being politically correct; facts are facts and people respond to what they know. Kanye West created a song (I think called Monster) about killing women, and EVERYONE freaked the hell out. Why? Because it was disgusting, that's why. Ke$ha can get away with her Cannibal because not only is it playful, but yes, she is a female, and society is more lenient towards her (in terms of this specific topic of discussion). I personally like the song Cannibal, enjoy singing along, and am not offended. I do not imagine cooking and eating men, nor does it give me the desire to do so (lol ew). And I don't think all pop songs have to have a "literary or artistic twist". Sometimes raw details and simply stating something make a song what it is. And...I don't know why you went off on pop stars referring to women as whores/hoes/etc, as this is....not related to Ke$ha's song whatsoever. Pretty sure she doesn't mention anything insulting to women. @Follywood I hope you don't mind the ping, but I've seen you're a big Ke$ha fan and may want to weigh in on the song. 
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| #4 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 6:03 PM | |
 KestrelHas a Massive Family  2,568 Posts 896 Achievements |
@GreyishSkies I disagree with the random commenter that there's really a double standard there. If anything, there's one in the music/media industry already since it's pretty normal to oversexualize, dehumanize and abuse women but you don't really see it nearly as much with men. For me personally this sticks out even more with women who aren't feminists/feminist supporters- probably because they're much more open/casual about it since they typically don't get in trouble for their opinions (spawning from the idea that you can't be sexist against your own sex, which isn't true at all). They tend to be too critical of women's physical features, more accepting of stereotypes and have the "she was probably asking for it" attitude. Kesha actually openly admits that many of her songs are meant to point out that double standard that exists within music and jokes about how hypocritical she finds it. I don't totally agree with the way she goes about it, but I guess that's kind of beside the point. I haven't heard the song (I'm not really much of a fan, to be honest, but I'll go listen to it now) but honestly? It doesn't sound anymore disturbing than "Love the Way You Lie" by Eminem, which of course is about domestic abuse which inevitably ends in homicide. There's isn't too much that's more gory than burning to death and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that domestic abuse hits closer to home and would generally be more offensive to more people than cannibalism. Edit: I'm not entirely sure what the debate is in this thread either, but if it's whether or not we think a double standard exists in music, my answer is yes, but I believe that the double standard still lies with the men rather than the women. We have more really popular female artists that are kiiind of balancing things out now (Kesha, Lady Gaga, Rhianna, etc) but these women are also seen as inappropriate by many people where it's just accepted and even expected for male singers to sing about sex (versus 'making love' with a long-term partner), parties, drugs, violence and all that ~fun stuff~ whereas women are mostly expected to sing about love and breakups. We've had female artists in the past of course who have challenged this (TLC and Missy Elliot come to mind) but for the most part cruder lyrics from women seem experience waves of popularity rather than being a constant thing. Oddly enough, it always seems to hit its peak when there's a democrat in office. No idea if that's coincidence or not, it's just a funny trend I've noticed at least within the span of my own lifetime. Back on topic, I do definitely believe that there are double standards that "benefit" women in general society- things are really never even- but I don't feel that music and media are included too often. For every song by a woman that talks about violence against men, I can probably think of five others from men that promote violence against women. Hell, Emo is an entire genre where it's commonplace for a male artist to sing about how he'd like to strangle/generally kill his ex (before committing his own suicide of course). Last Edit by:
Kestrel 11/28/11 - 7:31:09 pm
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| #5 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 7:33 PM | |
| GreyishSkies Subeta Luva 57 Posts 86 Achievements |
Quote By @Magic:
And...I don't know why you went off on pop stars referring to women as whores/hoes/etc, as this is....not related to Ke$ha's song whatsoever. Pretty sure she doesn't mention anything insulting to women. Okay, yeah. I see how I could have confused you. In fact, I'm re-reading my post now and honestly a lot of what I was saying doesn't make sense, haha. Let me clarify; The reason I brought up the derrogatory terms and mentions of violence such as domestic abuse is because many pop (and similar genres of music) have caught flack from feminists (among others) that find the music to be degrading. I think the parallel that I was trying to draw was that the random commenter was saying that the aformentioned opinion is rediculous because Ke$ha would never be called out for making a song that was offensive for men by making "Cannibal". This is the "double standard" I think the commentor was referring to; calling a woman a whore in a song is offensive, but Ke$ha singing about cannibalizing men isn't. And just to make it clear, I'm on your side. I like the song. I don't think it's offensive, and realize it's all in good fun. However, I do find the slang terms (dog and such) offensive because they are face value; that's what I mean by artistic/literary twist. Using a metaphor of cannibalism to characterize your sex drive is in good fun, but coming out and saying something like "manwhore" or lyrics that blantantly state that you don't value the lives of the men you sleep with is offensive. I hope that makes it a little more clear. 
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| #6 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 8:17 PM | |
| Follywood is Darksided!  3,364 Posts 673 Achievements |
@Magic lol I'm glad I've made my way up the ranks of Subeta and have solidified my spot as the 'go-to Ke$ha fan'  @GreyishSkies Ke$ha always seems to be the queen of insensitivity whenever I hear her name in the news lol--usually being the appropriation of native american culture or glorified alcoholic and drug addict brainwashing our precious youth. The point being is that Ke$ha is bound to offend you in one way or another; I think that's what she honestly aims for. Imo people need to take what Ke$ha sings with a grain of salt, enjoy the fun time they had shaking their ass to Ke$ha's beats(because I think you're lying if you said you didn't), and move on with your day. It's all make believe fun time and getting upset over her music is hardly worth the effort. Now that that's out of the way, I think this song really isn't a fair example of what you're trying to get across. 'Cannibal' isn't a single; it's not something that's played on the radio being 'forced'(as some parents would call it) into the youth of America's ears. For this reason it's not that big of a deal to me or a large amount of people. It's an obscure song on the internet that some child could easily stumble upon as easy as they could porn. But to delve deeper into the issue, we have to think about the roles that men and women play in the music industry. Women are supposed to be kind, harmless, sultry goddesses of perfection while men are cool bad asses who leave their girlfriend in the club so they can go have a one-night stand. Female pop stars are held to a much higher standard than their male counterparts. Did she go the club and make out with a guy? "WHAT A WHORE!!!" Did she go to the club and drink? "TRASHY MESS!!!" Now think about the situation if a male celebrity were to do those things. Most likely they would not even make the news. We live in a society where men and women are almost treated as completely different species. They're supposed to behave differently despite the fact that they are both HUMAN and in all reality it should be perfectly acceptable for them to act the exact same way with the exact same repercussions for their actions. But since they are treated differently, it's no surprise to me that we have 'double-standards'(if that's what you want to call it). Women are oppressed in America and most of the world, so depending on who you talk to, a man singing 'Cannibal' will probably give you a reaction anywhere between "sexist and violent animal, what a disgusting person to sing this, etc" to "rocking song, doges are my sex objects, etc." Do you see the difference? When Ke$ha sings it the reactions are "This is pretty disgusting" to "IF A MAN WERE TO SING THIS IT WOULD BE SEXIST AND VIOLENT AND BLAHSHDHA" and it's because it's TRUE. It IS generally considered violent and sexist if a man sings about harming a woman physically(I'll add harming a woman with no remorse just to be specific) because women are viewed as the weaker underdog in society. It's like a perfectly healthy person singing about kicking a mentally handicapped person as opposed to a handicapped person singing about kicking a perfectly healthy person(not saying I agree with either of these, but my point on level of offensiveness between two different scenarios applies). If that's considered a 'double-standard' to you then so be it. I feel like I rambled on a bit about something that was barely on-topic, but it's only because Cannibal is beyond the line of insensitivity no matter what gender were to sing it. I don't really think it's a fair example of double-standards in the music industry when the lyrics themselves are most likely considered gross and obscene by 99% of the American population if taken literally. Last Edit by:
Follywood 11/28/11 - 8:21:35 pm
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| #7 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 8:26 PM | |
| GreyishSkies Subeta Luva 57 Posts 86 Achievements |
Quote By @Follywood:
I'm not trying to get anything across. I just wanted to know what other people on the forum thought about the comment that was left on the video. I totally agree with your statement. I like Ke$ha, a lot. Her music is all in good fun, Hell, I've had this song on repeat for about 15 minutes now, I can't get enough of it. I just wanted to know if anyone on the forums here had a different interpretation, if there were people who actually took it as an outright attack on the opposite sex, found it offensive, etc. I don't.
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| #8 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 8:40 PM | |
| Follywood is Darksided! 3,364 Posts 673 Achievements |
@GreyishSkies
No no no, I know you don't agree with the opinion that the song is an attack on men or a sort of double standard. What I meant was, in this debate you've set up for us, I don't think it's a fair example to say "No one is making a fuss about this song: double standards??" because Cannibal is not something that's being played on the radio and advertised on television. The song is known mainly to fans and the random passer-by/Ke$ha hater, so the opinions of agreement with the song are probably going to outweigh the 'disagrees' by far. I think if the song WERE a single and it was being promoted/played on radios, etc. then I could definitely see people crying "BAN THIS OBSCENITY!!" based almost solely on the fact that the song is disgusting and promoting violence
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| #9 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 10:20 PM | |
| GreyishSkies Subeta Luva 57 Posts 86 Achievements |
Yeah, that's a good point, too. It hasn't really had enough publicity to be debated or disliked among the general public. If she was making a huge amount of capital and publicity off of it, then people would be justified in being legitimately upset.
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| #10 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 10:31 PM | |
| Emotional is a Skilled Hooker  5,517 Posts 554 Achievements |
@GreyishSkies
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| #11 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 10:44 PM | |
| GreyishSkies Subeta Luva 57 Posts 86 Achievements |
Yeah, Ke$ha's personality is pretty carefree and nonchalant. Even if she did threaten to kill and cannibalize someone seriously, I don't think I'd really be convinced, either.
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| #12 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 10:54 PM | |
| Life is THE item hunter!  9,278 Posts 1,222 Achievements Aerilee Finally fierce. Almost. |
 I like Ke$ha's music because it is trashy and carefree. She sings about being uninhibited, drinking for fun, and being a little person of questionable reputationty. Guess what. Women are allowed to do that. Someone above me said it best - women are so often pigeonholed into the role of submissive, proper, polite, etc. It happens so often that women end up getting into dangerous situations sometimes because they feel they have to be polite (not getting off the elevator when creepy attacker gets on because they don't want to hurt his feelings, etc). I think it's about damn time we had a role model that tells us it's ok to be something other than what we're expected to be. Maybe not necessarily taking it to the extremes that she takes it in her songs, but just taking it in the spirit in which it's intended. Be a person, live your life the way you want to live it, be a real human. Don't be the nice girl next door because you're expected to. And yes, this song is a glaring double-standard. When we hear Ke$ha singing it, it's funny and silly and a little bit shocking. If a male was singing it in some dark hardcore song, we would be scared and horrified. But that's because most of the time it's the dude that's serial killing and eating livers, not the pretty blonde girl getting drunk at the club. Maybe it's unfair, but some things are a stereotype for a reason.
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| #13 :: November 28th, 2011 @ 11:58 PM | |
| GreyishSkies Subeta Luva 57 Posts 86 Achievements |
Quote By @Life:
I like Ke$ha's music because it is trashy and carefree. She sings about being uninhibited, drinking for fun, and being a little person of questionable reputationty. Guess what. Women are allowed to do that. Someone above me said it best - women are so often pigeonholed into the role of submissive, proper, polite, etc. It happens so often that women end up getting into dangerous situations sometimes because they feel they have to be polite (not getting off the elevator when creepy attacker gets on because they don't want to hurt his feelings, etc). I think it's about damn time we had a role model that tells us it's ok to be something other than what we're expected to be. Maybe not necessarily taking it to the extremes that she takes it in her songs, but just taking it in the spirit in which it's intended. Be a person, live your life the way you want to live it, be a real human. Don't be the nice girl next door because you're expected to. Right on! Couldn't have said it better myself.
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