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| #1 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 1:13 PM | |
 cainis a Time Lord    577 Posts 292 Achievements  
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 This is a direct question to everybody out there who "disapproves of" homosexuality, bisexuality, transsexuals, pansexuality, or any -sexuality that doesn't start with "hetro" It has been proven, time and time again, that these things are not conscious choices on people's parts: I assume, for argument's sake, that those of you who disapprove of such things are heterosexuals. I also know full well that none of you just up and "chose" to be straight any more than we "chose" to be what we are. But even people who acknowledge this, even people who accept the scientific facts behind the matter. Of those people there are some who see love between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, or a transsexual and anybody, as being "immoral", "wrong" or "bad" in some way. So, to those of you who feel this way (I know you're out there, I've seen some of you voice your opinions, after all): Why? What is it about, say, me falling in love with another man that you find so fundamentally flawed or wrong? Again, this is a genuine question, why? What is the reason for it? I've seen plenty say "I think X sexuality is just wrong" or "I disapprove of X sexuality" but never are any proper reasons given. The closest I've seen have either been A) Religious or B) Scientifically inaccurate. Are there any reasons that don't relate to some mystical belief or scientific fallacies? If there are, I am genuinely curious to hear them. I want to hear the justification people supposedly have for hating me based on what I cannot control. Last Edit by:
cain 8/07/12 - 1:14:41 pmArtwork done by my darling |
| #2 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 1:31 PM | |
| Follywood is Darksided!  3,370 Posts 675 Achievements |
I've only heard one reasoning for this before and it was that someone attracted to the same sex is a sign of vanity and narcissism; that homosexuals place their attraction above the natural order of things(again adam and steve thing..) which means that they are disrupting ~the order of the cosmos~
But of course in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter, since there aren't enough gay people in the world to actually mess up the order of life. I suppose it's a preventative measure type thing. Not to mention normalcy is just each person's own little fantasy. Logically I don't think there are any real reasons, no.
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| #3 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 1:34 PM | |
 Haywoodis a Mirage  340 Posts 136 Achievements |
lmfao i've heard the argument "of course we didn't choose to be straight, being straight is normal"
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| #4 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 1:34 PM | |
| cain is a Time Lord 577 Posts 292 Achievements |
@Follywood Hah! It'd take some kind of global Gaysplosion (now coined as the most awesome word I've ever typed) to put the human race in any real danger. If anything, the world is overpopulated right now. No better conception than doing it with somebody who cannot physically get pregnant from you. Artwork done by my darling |
| #5 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 1:42 PM | |
| Puck_n_Loki Gets Around  4,691 Posts 455 Achievements |
 Because homosexuals go against the natural order of things. They dare to defy God and his intended plan for the universe, they take his gift that was meant to be used to create more humans and use it for their sick and twisted pleasure. But most of all because Chick-Fil-A told me so.
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| #6 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 2:00 AM | |
| RedSekhmet Do you have a life?  6,787 Posts 863 Achievements |
 Besides the religious arguments, which I'm not going to bother to get into because a simple "not everyone is your religion and has to follow your god's laws" takes care of that, the major one I've heard comes from people who believe it's wrong because supposedly every member of a species should want to reproduce to further their genes and make the species larger. They point out in nature that mating and reproducing is the basic long term goal of animals, which means that it is unnatural for a member of a species not to want to do that.
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| #7 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 2:15 AM | |
| Tomorrow is a Mirage  3,948 Posts 610 Achievements |
Honestly?
The biggest anti-LGTBQ people tend to be those who have a certain degree of same sex attraction. It's fear.
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| #8 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 3:14 AM | |
| FoxPaw is a Mirage  137 Posts 367 Achievements |
@cain
Because we're too damn fabulous. But to answer honestly, I've seen people use the "slippery slope" argument. You know the one where: "letting gays marry will lead to men marrying their dogs and women marrying their toasters! Where will it end?!" etc. "Marry is between one man and one woman, 'traditional marriage'" is getting quite popular as of late. Again, it's religion-linked and, quite frankly, wrong. Marriage (or at least something that could be called similar to modern marriage), even gay-marriage, predates the Abrahamic religions so Christianity has no claim over it. Most of the other popular "reasons" have been covered in previous posts so I won't go over those.
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| #9 :: August 10th, 2012 @ 7:22 PM | |
| Hound Is Lonely  940 Posts 296 Achievements |
  I think the majority of sensible people, as in educated and perhaps up to date with their current events, who disagree with different sexualities are religious. It's also fair to point out those who disagree don't necessarily hate you. That's a big assumption and it's rather unfair to make. Although I'm sure you've met some buttheads. Don't let one speak for a crowd. I disagree with it based on religious reason. Although I most certainly do not hate anyone, or hold any kind prejudiced. I can relate because I've been there before. I am terribly disappointed with how other groups of people have handled the issue. It's even unfair. If you actually write out the entire argument, using the Bible accurately, against homosexuality, it's not that bad and ugly. It's hopeful, cause it's basically just another sin to deal with. Nothing is special about gay people, as some religious people make it out to be. While I also think it's fair to point out the hate has been returned to us who disagree. People are very silly. Sympathy can be extended on both parts. There will always be people who support both sides, I think we need to learn to get along and love each other before anything else.
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| #10 :: August 10th, 2012 @ 9:39 PM | |
| Saren Donated to the Cash Shop  1,926 Posts 373 Achievements |
Quote By @Hound:
It's also fair to point out those who disagree don't necessarily hate you. Yes, because there's nothing negative/oppressive/judgmental/hateful about a sentiment that basically boils down to "You're a sinner who's going to go the Hell because you don't have sex the same way I do. Unless, of course, you refrain from having sex while us straight people get to keep doing it!" No, maybe you're not going around spewing trash like "GOD HATES FAGS!", but you're still condemning people based on who they love, which a.) Is not your job (Matthew 7:1-5) and b.) goes against Jesus Christ's own command to "love thy neighbor as thyself" because, as he said, that is the second most important Commandment of all (the first being to love God with all your heart; Mark 12:28-31) Also, the current "understanding" of homosexuality is based on the highly-corrupt KJV (of which entire parts were rewritten or omitted completely to justify the paranoias and hatreds of King James, and which has heavily influenced every translation written afterward.) The original Greek translations are not about "homosexuals" in general (as the word didn't even exist at the time,) but are instead condemning the Roman practice of pederasty which, while referring to same-sex activity, specifically referred to the then-common practice of adult men (usually wealthy men and/or politicians) having sexual relations with male children and teens.
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| #11 :: August 10th, 2012 @ 10:02 PM | |
| Follywood is Darksided! 3,370 Posts 675 Achievements |
@Hound
Could you elaborate on why you agree that it's a sin? I'm not a Christian and I haven't read the bible so I'm just curious as to what the explanation behind it is.
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| #12 :: August 10th, 2012 @ 10:26 PM | |
| Haywood is a Mirage 340 Posts 136 Achievements |
Quote By @Hound: It's also fair to point out those who disagree don't necessarily hate you. this doesn't sit right with me you may not hate each and every gay person but as soon as you "disagree" with someone's sexuality it doesn't really matter what you say to that effect because it's still loveing deplorable that you see us as lesser than you/wrong because of your religion Last Edit by:
Haywood 8/10/12 - 10:29:01 pm
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| #13 :: August 10th, 2012 @ 11:35 PM | |
| wimora is Darksided!  578 Posts 339 Achievements |
 ^this is my response to everyone who says it's against 'traditional marriage' as stated in the bible...
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| #14 :: August 10th, 2012 @ 11:38 PM | |
| Haywood is a Mirage 340 Posts 136 Achievements |
@wimora that makes me laugh (in a good way) because bible defenders will preach forever and ever about things like that "don't apply anymore" because of how times have changed, but they still believe tons of other primitive crap haha
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| #15 :: August 10th, 2012 @ 11:41 PM | |
| wimora is Darksided! 578 Posts 339 Achievements |
it's like using  and saying you're up to date :/
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| #16 :: August 10th, 2012 @ 11:45 PM | |
| InsanityFallsUp is Shady  1,253 Posts 415 Achievements |
 ]Quote By @Hound:It's also fair to point out those who disagree don't necessarily hate you. True. I'm bisexual and have a friend who is rather disapproving of LGBTQ people. She expresses her disgust with the community as a whole when it is mentioned and I have attempted to change her views many, many times. But the point is, she doesn't mind me and entertains me when I'm bored. She's a wonderful friend. So yes, even though she might disagree with different sexualities, she does not outright hate you if you happen to be of a different sexuality. She's practically my bestie and I rather love her, so I might be biased on this point, but I'll have to agree. Although, yes, the way people treat different sexualities is sometimes very very disappointing. Mind, the friend mentioned above is not religious-- I haven't a clue exactly why she disapproves of LGBTQs. But that isn't the point. The point is that my parents are a bit homophobic-- I've yet to come out to THEM, though I have to everyone else, which is rather hilarious-- and they aren't religious. At all. I've often debated with them to find out the reason behind their prejudices but they've yet to give me a satisfactory answer. I don't think, "Because it's disgusting" warrants a reasonable response in return so we often have shouting matches instead. This aside, they seem to have this... odd complex. As in, when asked why they disagree with extending marriage to gays, they say, "What would you call traditional marriage then? I (father is speaking here) am married to your mother. If gays got married, what would you call our marriage?" So I think there's a bit of a-- superiority complex, so to speak. That is, some people might feel as though they'd no longer be considered special or something, if that'd make sense.
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| #17 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 1:24 AM | |
| Hound Is Lonely 940 Posts 296 Achievements |
Quote By @Saren: Yes, because there's nothing negative/oppressive/judgmental/hateful about a sentiment that basically boils down to "You're a sinner who's going to go the Hell because you don't have sex the same way I do. Unless, of course, you refrain from having sex while us straight people get to keep doing it!" When does, "I disagree" lead to all that? That's not that case at all. There is nothing judgmental or hateful to say that 'homosexuality is a sin' and that they disagrees with it. Of course given they've done this in a loving, gentle manner. There is such a thing as beating a dead horse. Christians are going to disagree with all sins. Try for a moment to look through this from the perspective of a Christian. They believe that Christianity is the truth. They also believe their religion leads to eternal happiness, comfort, love, etc. They believe said homosexual is in a position where they are forfeiting this good eternity and running down a path that leads to destruction. And for this purpose of this scenario lets say Christianity and The Bible are true. Wouldn't it be hateful for the Christian not to share their 'truth' with the homosexual? Given they do understand this yet. Yes, this depends on how the individual approaches the subject, because it can easily become hateful. But a lot of people are trying to help. Just as Jesus commanded. Sure, I agree it would be oppressive to stop all gay sex. We're adults and everyone is consenting. Also, they should have they right to get married, because again, we're adults and we can make our own choices, that only affect our own lives. God gave use free will. This applies to homosexual as well and although it might not be right, stopping them would be crossing the line. Quote: "You're a sinner who's going to go the Hell because you don't have sex the same way I do. Unless, of course, you refrain from having sex while us straight people get to keep doing it!" This is wrong. Hell is /not/ filled with homosexuals, it's filled with people who don't love God, just as Heaven is /not/ filled with heterosexuals, but people who do love God. The last sentence is kind of true. Repenting is important. If one does not then they are not obeying God, therefore they do not love him. But God also sympathizes with our weakness, so he understands. --- Quote: No, maybe you're not going around spewing trash like "GOD HATES FAGS!", but you're still condemning people based on who they love, which a.) Is not your job (Matthew 7:1-5) and b.) goes against Jesus Christ's own command to "love thy neighbor as thyself" because, as he said, that is the second most important Commandment of all (the first being to love God with all your heart; Mark 12:28-31) I like mention the scenario above for this as well. People shouldn't be condemning other people. Saying you're doing something wrong is not equivalent with judging someone. We do things wrong. By pointing out what is wrong can help someone. 'Oh hey, your tire is flat. Don't drive.' That's not judgmental. 'Hey, stealing is wrong. Don't do that." That's not judgmental either. And love and sex are not equivalent either. As I mentioned, there are people who address the issue poorly. --- Quote: Also, the current "understanding" of homosexuality is based on the highly-corrupt KJV (of which entire parts were rewritten or omitted completely to justify the paranoias and hatreds of King James, and which has heavily influenced every translation written afterward.) The original Greek translations are not about "homosexuals" in general (as the word didn't even exist at the time,) but are instead condemning the Roman practice of pederasty which, while referring to same-sex activity, specifically referred to the then-common practice of adult men (usually wealthy men and/or politicians) having sexual relations with male children and teens. Okay, this isn't true. Why would they write translations off of the KJV when they could do so off of the original Greek, Hebrew, and Latin text? That makes no sense. Do you have proof for this? Also, the Bible couldn't have possibly be altered in such a way because there are so many manuscripts written. In order to alter the Bible, one would have to change each manuscript. If there is a discrepancy between them all, then someone is lying. That's not so with the Bible. Here's some evidence. (This site is a debate between the bible and Qu'arn, but it has evidence that supports what I mentioned. For the above site. Quote: We have today in our possession 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, another 10,000 Latin Vulgates, and 9,300 other early versions (MSS), giving us more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today! (taken from McDowell's Evidence That demands a Verdict, vol.1, 1972 pgs.40-48; and Time, January 23, 1995, pg.57). Though we do not have any originals, with such a wealth of documentation at our disposal with which to compare, we can delineate quite closely what those originals contained. So good old King James couldn't change it and did not influence translations. In relation to how they translated the text, in relation to homosexuality, it's translated rather accurately. This is from Boston University Institutional Repository, an education site, with published documents. This paper is written by Robert Neville, a theologian. [His name middle name is blocked with a filter] This discuses homosexuality in the bible in relation to the Greek Text. Quote: Turning to the New Testament, no mention of homosexuality or homosexual acts So it's not translated as you mentioned it was. If you find flaws in my argument, I'd loved to hear them. I have an open mind. @Haywood You find an answer in here as well, at the top of this post. Last Edit by:
Hound 8/11/12 - 3:23:24 am
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| #18 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 1:28 AM | |
| Haywood is a Mirage 340 Posts 136 Achievements |
@Hound lol wait are you operating under the assumption that homosexuals can't be religious
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| #19 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 1:30 AM | |
| Hound Is Lonely 940 Posts 296 Achievements |
@Haywood No, that homosexuality is sin.
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| #20 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 1:31 AM | |
| Haywood is a Mirage 340 Posts 136 Achievements |
@Hound oh wait i misread nevermind
my opinion still stands though
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| #21 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 3:16 AM | |
| Hound Is Lonely 940 Posts 296 Achievements |
@Haywood That's cool, I don't mind. But I really don't think of you as lesser than I. I'm sorry if it came off that way. @Follywood Because the Bible, God's word, says so. Which is basically how Christianity works. It's a faith based religion. We find evidence in the Old Testament and New Testament regarding homosexuality. The Old Testament is, in a sense, 'erased' because of the New Testament. When Jesus Christ came and died on the cross he was the sacrifice for our sins. That's why we no longer kill farm animals, and we can no longer kill people for planting two different crops side by side, or working on the Sabbath, or wearing two different kinds of fabric, nor can we kill homosexuals. The Old testament is still part of the bible because they are for 'learning and hope.' The stories are example for us. Romans 15:4. Hebrews 10:9, Hebrews 9:14, or 9:22. In the Old Testament, it mentions homosexuals here: Genesis 18-19 Sodom and Gomorrah Abraham pleaded with God not to destroy the city because of their sins. (Although God never says it's specifically because of homosexuality, in character 19 homosexual acts are mentioned. I agree debatable. They were probably others sin there too.) 26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake. ” 27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?” “If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.” Until they agree on ten people. Later, it never mentioned if those ten people were found or not in the chapter, but God burned the city down. Leviticus 18: 22 and 20:13 The New Testament mentions homosexuality as well. But, Jesus Christ never says anything about it. However, we can not be entirely sure this is true. It is written in John 21:25 that not everything Jesus did, is in the Bible, because there would be too many books. However Paul writes about it. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 He list acts that 'do not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.' However he also mentioned that those sins are forgiven because of Jesus Christ. Romans 1:25-27 Of course it would be necessary to read the entire chapter to get the context. They didn't worship God so God turned them over their sexual impurity, which included homosexuality. 1 Timothy 1:9-11 God gave sinners the law to guide them, which is all of us, not for the righteous. [But they wouldn't need it anyway because they are already righteous.] He goes on to talk about sinful things, and practicing homosexuality is one of them. As it was mentioned the act of homosexuality is something that is forgiven. I mentioned before, Heaven is filled with people who love God /not/ heterosexuals, while Hell is filled with people who do not love God, /not/ homosexuals. -- Matthew 19:3-6 Is marriage between a man and women? Yes, Jesus says they are joined as one flesh. -- A common question is: "If homosexuality is a sin, why did God make me gay?" God did not make you gay, the world did. God is perfect, God is good, everything He does is without sin. So therefore God cannot and will not make you gay. Humans however, since God gave them free will, can decided to choose, the bad. That isn't God's influence. Satan influences the wrong choices. 2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is 'God of this Age', he blinds man so they cannot see the truth of the gospels. Satan is the one who rules this world. He influences a lot of our ideas and morals, even our sexual morals. Satan influenced Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He deceived them as he deceives everyone to this day. I know it's not as simple as saying a prayer but that's why it's a process. It's called a walk with Jesus for a reason. God will purify our mind but it takes time. We should not be a burdened by any of our sins. 1 John 1:9 Galatians 5:1 Philippians 4:3 God doesn't care if you're straight, gay, bi, or any others, he just wants you to love him. That's while he created us. It's our very 1st command. Matthews 12:30. It's really just another sexual sin, nothing special. God will love everyone no matter what, he has everlasting, unconditioned love. We are his children. He will never turn anyone away, homosexual or not. Nothing is too big for him to handle. Last Edit by:
Hound 8/11/12 - 4:33:26 am
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| #22 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 5:25 AM | |
| Queenloki Gossiper  1,120 Posts 613 Achievements |
@cain
Some people who have a negative view of others is because of their upbringing being told how they should think and why, Peoples ideas and thoughts are formed and controlled by the people and the environment around them unless you decide to form your own thoughts and don't let others influence you. Both my parents are kind of homophobic not like really bad though, similar reasons stated here, religious marriage between a man and woman is the only way blah blah and un-natural blah blah blah. Personally someones sexual orientation doesn't bother me at all (I formed my own ideas and thoughts on the world and its people), why should I care how someone else lives their life? just because my parents are weird about it? its none of my or anyone elses business. Trick or Treat @ Queenloki
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| #23 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 5:39 AM | |
| Erajia Member  29 Posts 60 Achievements |
 Mostly to be honest it's because people who oppose anything take the worst scenario of the thing of which they're against to use in there argument "Gay people sleep around and spread STDs" "All homosexuals are druggies! and prostitutes!" "They molest children and make people try to join them!" "Being gay will ruin the sanctuary of marriage!" Where as anyone should know people do stupid things based on being stupid not what gender they're attracted to.  |
| #24 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 6:30 AM | |
| Violerra Newbie  10 Posts 34 Achievements |
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| #25 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 10:43 AM | |
| Haywood is a Mirage 340 Posts 136 Achievements |
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| #26 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 10:57 AM | |
| Hound Is Lonely 940 Posts 296 Achievements |
@Violerra In my earlier post, I mentioned why we do not follow the Old Testament laws, which would clear up many of your misunderstandings. I encourage you to read the Bible yourself. Also, I not interpreting anything at this pointing, it's plainly mentioned. That also comes from your catholic roots. The Bible is here for everyone to read, not just 'special people.' But anyway, I'm sorry you had a bad experience with it. There is no need to apologize. [quote]Also, why should only Christianity be considered in terms of gay rights? What about the agnostics, new age religions, Wiccans, atheists, Buddhists, Hindu, etc. religions not be taken into consideration? Christians need to stop quoting the bible as if it the only law. Because if that was the case, nobody would be alive today.[quote] The is a fair point, while other religions are important and do hold their own weight in the argument, Christianity holds a bigger one, because there are far more Christians, and America is a democracy. Besides, Christians believe their Bible should triumph over man's law, which is why they defend it as they do.
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| #27 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 12:43 PM | |
| ghost Is Lonely  4,237 Posts 543 Achievements |
ain't it a fine life @Hound If it were proven beyond challenging that homosexuality was a natural biological occurrence, wouldn't that mean homosexuality was God's creation, not Satan's temptation? let your worries go
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| #28 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 4:45 PM | |
| Violerra Newbie 10 Posts 34 Achievements |
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| #29 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 4:50 PM | |
| Haywood is a Mirage 340 Posts 136 Achievements |
Quote By @Violerra: If you don't believe that gays should have the same exact rights as married couples do in the eyes of the state, then you are homophobic or a bigot. Plain and simple. You can't be "OK" with gays and being around them, and then simply demand that they are offending you by getting married. Sorry...it doesn't work that way. That would be like me saying "Oh, I'm OK with black people. I just don't think they deserve the right to vote because that's what the original constitution said". Like give me a break. absolutely these bits. for sure. on a somewhat unrelated topic, it's a little sad to imagine us electing a non-christian president simply because it would probably never happen. i can't imagine what would be worse, people's perception of obama as a muslim or their potential perception of a[n] [possible] atheist in office. Last Edit by:
Haywood 8/11/12 - 4:51:43 pm
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| #30 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 5:01 PM | |
| Violerra Newbie 10 Posts 34 Achievements |
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| #31 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 5:48 PM | |
| Haywood is a Mirage 340 Posts 136 Achievements |
@Violerra
yeah the only time i'd care about someone's religion is if they were planning on changing non-religious and non-christian (etc.) people's rights/basing their actions in office on their religion. otherwise idc at all.
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| #32 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 5:52 PM | |
| Rattata is a Time Lord  4,646 Posts 611 Achievements |
  There's nothing at all immoral about being gay, lesbian, bi, transgender, etc. Nothing. * * * * * * I saw the constellations reveal themselves one star at a time.
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| #33 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 6:16 PM | |
| dear Silly Spamming Sausage  499 Posts 84 Achievements |
@Violerra
Quote: Also, not saying you were interpreting anything, but I meant the people that do say "God means ____ because if you don't you go to hell" or "God is so happy that you are following the path of Jesus. You will be rewarded in heaven." You can't just go and say what God wants or what God will be happy about. Also, you can't give God any human features because that would also be breaking another commandment. Of course you can say what God would be pleased with, it says there in black and white in the Bible. Is it wrong to say that God is happy when Christians act according to his commandments, and is unhappy when they don't? And which commandment are you talking about, that you can't give human features to God? You can, and in fact, you should--the Bible says that humans are made in the image of God, and that we rememble him in many ways. There's a terrific series by Dr. R.C. Sproul called The Shattered Image that deals with this in length. Quote: I am also incredibly fluent in the Catholic bible and teachings because I studied this for years, like I said. Catholics believe that if you are gay, it's perfectly fine because all men and women are made in the image and likeness of God. The act itself is also not frowned upon or evil, so long as you do no harm. This is wrong. Homosexuality is definitely considered a sin to catholics, as you can see here. Quote: Catholics also believe that you don't have to be Christian to be sent to heaven. If you do good in your life and you are sorry for any bad that you did in your life, then you will be sent to heaven. This is also false. I think you'd misinterpreting the good works doctrine--it's true that catholics believe that doing good is integral to being saved, but that only comes after baptism and the confession of your allegiance to Christ. Jesus is still the "way and the truth and the life, no one goes to the father except through [him]," John 14:6. "Good" works, by the world's flimsy and mercurial definition of "good," is in no way enough to get you to heaven. Quote: I, however, do not follow the Catholic Church because they have used their power a lot in history for horrible things. I'm not catholic, but I will say that I don't think you should disreguard an entire religion by the things its leaders have done in the past. Especially because you seem to have an interest and agree with some catholic teachings. Besides, you'll find that a lot of heinous historical acts were done with faith as an excuse, not for the faith. Crusades are a good example; greedy church leaders and knights simply wanted more land and spoils, and it's just easier to use God as your reason rather than your own selfish motives. Do you condemn catholics today for the crusades? Do you condemn all muslims and the faith itself for the middle east? If you feel an affinity towards religion, look at it for its teachings rather than those who practice it. There's a gandhi quote where he said, "I like your Christ, but not your Christian," and I've always thought that that was really sad. Quote: I have never read the King James Bible, nor do I intend to. The King James bible was rewritten by King James to fit his own selfish needs and was a way to get around the Catholic teachings. And Christians today say King James was infused with God to "get it back to what it should have been." Like are you kidding me? Read Hound's argument against this in post #17.Quote: Sorry to be against Christians, but I was raised Catholic and I have studied all of Catholicism and Christianity my whole life...it's an incredibly hateful and hypocritical religion. Again, don't judge the religion itself based on the experience you've had with other, very flawed human beings. I'm sorry you feel that way about christianity, but at its core it is a religion of love, and studying of the Bible with an open mind will reveal that it is not at all hypocritical or contradictory, even if Christians themselves might be. Since you say that you study the bible, I'd highly reccomend getting a study bible--I have the Reformation Study Bible and it's helped me so much whenever I'm having trouble with a verse or confused by a seeming contradiction. Slavery in the OT, for exmaple, was a huge one that was reconciled beautifully. But that's a different story. Quote: And do not interpret the word of God, because that is only for preachers. If you do so, you are a heretic because you are breaking a commandment: Exodus 20:7 "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain" I don't see how that verse has anything to do with interpreting the Bible. And God definitely wants us to work things out ourselves, instead of blindly following preachers. We are called to be "gentle as doves and shrewd as serpents," especially in light of the countless false prophets and people who, as you say, do not practice what they preach. Quote: Well....enough about Christians. If you don't believe that gays should have the same exact rights as married couples do in the eyes of the state, then you are homophobic or a bigot. Plain and simple. You can't be "OK" with gays and being around them, and then simply demand that they are offending you by getting married. Sorry...it doesn't work that way. That would be like me saying "Oh, I'm OK with black people. I just don't think they deserve the right to vote because that's what the original constitution said". Like give me a break. I'm obviously a Christian, and I believe that gay people should be allowed to marry. I still think it's a sin and that it's wrong, but I don't think it's the government's place to control or judge that. Seperation of church and state, as it were. (: But there's a difference between freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion, and both of these only apply to the government--you have no such protection form your fellow citizens, and that's why the religion of the president is such a big deal, because so many people still think that it as and, as hound said, we live in a democracy. I'm on a constitutional scholars team and we won third in the nation this year, so I'd love to discuss this further if you'd like. @ghost I can't speak for other Christians, but it would certainly give me halt. But the point is, we haven't. 
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| #34 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 6:45 PM | |
| Violerra Newbie 10 Posts 34 Achievements |
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| #35 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 7:58 PM | |
| dear Silly Spamming Sausage 499 Posts 84 Achievements |
@ violerra Quote: You can't say what God is thinking because you don't know what he is thinking. Is he imbuing you with himself and telling you exactly as he is feeling and what he is thinking? You are not because you are not a prophet. The bible only says to spread the good news of God. Not to tell people what God is thinking. We may not know what exactly Gos is thinking, but we have the Bible, which tells us far more than just to spread the good news of God. It shows us God's character, the things he loves--"the king rejoices in your strength," Psalms 21:1, is just one such example, and since you claimed to have read the Bible, I'm sure you know that God said that Jesus is his son, with "whom [God is] well pleased," matthew 3:17, so clearly God would be pleased if we tried to emulate Jesus by following his teachings We can also infer what God loves and what he hates from the Bible's stories--for exmaple, that he hates sin and loves righteousness, such as when he flooded the earth but saves Moses, who followed His commandments. Therefore, the Bible tells reveals to us God's character and what God loves, and so we can say that God loves when his people do certain things. Quote: And I am not saying what the Church in Rome says. I am saying what Catholics believe. There is a difference. My parents and their whole family is Catholic. That is what they believe and what their church believes. I don't see the difference. The church in Rome is essentially the crux of the Catholic religion, the pope God's mouthpiece on earth. I'm not saying your family aren'ts catholics, but if they truly believe that Quote: in Catholicism, you can believe whatever you want. then they certianly aren't following all the tenants of catholicism. Quote: You think the forgiveness rule is fake? Maybe. I am not saying I believe in it. But that is what the church preaches. So it can't be fake. I am not saying what you believe in is fake, so don't say something that someone else believes in is fake. The forgiveness rule? As in your claim that you don't have to be Christian to be saved? That is most definitely NOT what the church preaches, and I am saying that what you believe in is fake according to catholic beliefs. You're free to belive in it and I respect that you do, but me saying that you are wrong when in relation to catholicism isn't an opinion, it's empirical truth. Quote: And I will disregard the entire religion because you can't go and aid the Nazis, bring down hundreds of thousands of people in crusades, twist the minds of billions of people throughout history, and bring back science for 1000 years because of evidence that may disregard the existence of God. That in and of itself is despicable. You can't say that and yet turn around and claim that you "condone people for their individual choices" (and I think you mean 'condemn'). I'm a Christian, and I've never aided any nazis, participated in any crusades or halted any techonological processes. You think that the muslims in the middle east aren't practicing true islam? Well, what if I told you most christians today AND in the past weren't practicing true christianity? Christ was the only person who lived christianity to the fullest, and he ate with the tax collectors and healed lepers and gave his life for men who jeered and spat at him. Judge christianity by him, not by me or the westboro baptist church or any christians you know. Quote: How could you think people should be allowed to marry, but then go and say it's wrong and a sin? If that's the case, then aren't you sinning as well? I also think lying is a sin. Does that mean I think the government should come and take my little brother away every time he says he didn't spill juice when he did? No, I don't. I'm a strict seperationist; government is a necessary evil. We don't live in a theocracy--God tried that in the OT, and humanity failed him again and again in the book of judges, proving our need for a good government. That being said, the establishment clause gives americans the freedom from religion, which means that government has no right to control what we believe, nor enforce moral judgement upon its citizens, and banning gay marriage would be a direct violation of that. There's not other reason for the gov't to ban it besides religious ones (and the other common arguments against it are abdurd, saying that gay marriage will lead to polygamy and beastiality and whatnot. These people had the same argument during loving v. virginia, and none of that clearly never happened.), and a religious reason is just unconstitutional, and would never hold its own in the supreme court. So in short, I think banning gay marriage is unconstitutional, and the supreme court agreed in brown vs schwarzenegger (can't remember its new name and too lazy to look it up) this year, but I still believe it is a sin, just like any other, and that a person's sexuality should be between them, their family and God. People should be educated on the ramifications of their actions and choices and be held accountable for their own actions; the government shouldn't be the ones to control that. Quote: I'll say it again. If you like gays and you consider yourself someone that is "OK" with being gay, but still in your heart believe it is wrong for them to live their life as they please, you are a homophobic person or a bigot. I don't just like gays, I love gay people. God calls us to love everyone, just as Jesus loved everyone. So I (try my best to) love homosexuals. But I don't think it's "ok" to be gay. God calls us to love the person, but hate the sin. So am I homophobic? No, I don't htink so. I'm not scared of them in the least, I have friends and church acquaintances who are gay or have struggled with homosexuality, and they're just as nice as anyone else. As for being bigoted, well, I guess that depends on your definition. I perosnally define a bigot as someone who is ignorant and utterly intolerant toward another race, creed or whatever, and I don't think I'm ignorant, having read up on the subject and listened to many key speakers on the topic, but I guess it's fair to say that I'm intolerant, but only of the sin itself and not the person who practices it. So if you want to call me a bigot, I guess you have a right to define me as such. Quote: Their only purpose is to control people to do their bidding...Christians should learn that what they "believe" is harming other people in this world. They may not want to believe it, but it is. Christians LOVE to tell you that what you are doing is WRONG and what they are doing is the ONLY path to salvation. Well, excuse me, but religious freedom does not mean the freedom to judge someone else or the freedom to condone other religions, beliefs, or facts. That is something that Christians need to realize. I'm sorry if this has been your experience with religion, but I've never felt the need to do something I was uncomfortable with because of christianity. Also, how is what I believe harming other people? A true christian doesn't "love" to tell you that you are wrong, and if they do it with relish, they're the ones who are wrong. Though we DO believe that what you're doing is wrong, we are to be as nonjudgemental and as compassionate as possible--there was a verse that dealt with this, but I can't remember what it was. And actually, religious freedom DOES mean that people are free to impose their beliefs on others, just as you are imposing your belief that "christians are harming other people" on me. It's not right, but you don't have any protection from it, at least not from the government. Quote: Christians used to think that Blacks were evil and that it was HORRIBLE to give them basic rights. And the same exact people are now doing the same things to gays. History likes to repeat itself. And equal gay rights will wind up prevailing. Wait and see. Denying black people their basic rights has never been a christian ideal, just an idea that many poeple who happened to be christian because it was the main religion at the time believed in, and is anything but biblical. The Bible actually gives many instances of God giving rights to people who previously never had them; exodus 21:2-6, the verse many cite as the bible condoning slavery, is actually a treatise on how to treat slaves morally, especially female slaves, and the rights that they ought to have. (Slavery in Israel, I must add, was nothing like the American form of involuntary servitude. Most Israelite slaves become slaves or are given as slave by their family willingly to pay off debts, etc. The law says that they are to be set free in 8 years, though many stayed on out of loyalty to their masters.) But I agree with you that gay marraige will be legal soon, I'm not denying that, and I think that it should. So you don't have to use such a forboding tone about it. Last Edit by:
york 8/11/12 - 8:03:09 pm
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| #36 :: August 11th, 2012 @ 11:29 PM | |
| Hound Is Lonely 940 Posts 296 Achievements |
@ghost That would be a very hard thing to do. We only know a little about how the brain works, much less how it is influenced. Even so, science is constantly changing. People used to think the world was flat and the Earth was center of the solar system. Ha, actually, when people still believed the world was flat, the Bible said it was sphere. Isaiah 40:22. The notion that animals exhibit this behavior doesn't apply. There are many things animals that is natural but wrong, (murder) and there are many things humans do that is unnatural but is right (education). Besides human were created to resemble God's image, they were given free will, and they have souls. We're not comparable. Although I have looked into the matter, of course, and it seems a good majority of the studies that have been done are weak and sloppy. If you know of a nice one, I would love to read it. Which, I assume, is why you're asking me this question to begin with. It won't hurt my feelings at all. I don't mind being proven wrong. It think if we get to a point where it is proven beyond a challenge that homosexuality is a natural biological occurrence, it brings to question the truth of the Bible and God rather than who or what he's creating. There shouldn't be contradictions like that. @Violerra I hate to say this to you, but you can't disagree with the religion if you don't know what it's preaching. It's like saying you don't like the new Batman before you've seen the movie. In order to analyze the Bible properly you must do it as a whole. It still you still have some misunderstandings and I'd be happy to clear any of them up for you. In a post above I mentioned why we don't kill people based on Old Testament laws and I pointed out where in the Bible it say homosexuality is wrong. I even offered proof that it says so in the original Greek. As was said by York, I even talk about the King James dilemma. Again, I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences but you're making Christianity out to be much more hateful than what it actually is. It's not hateful at all. God is a very loving and forgiving god. Quote: Well....enough about Christians. If you don't believe that gays should have the same exact rights as married couples do in the eyes of the state, then you are homophobic or a bigot. Plain and simple. You can't be "OK" with gays and being around them, and then simply demand that they are offending you by getting married. Sorry...it doesn't work that way. That would be like me saying "Oh, I'm OK with black people. I just don't think they deserve the right to vote because that's what the original constitution said". Like give me a break. I even mentioned my belief regarding this in a earlier post. While I think it's fair, gay couples should be able to marry, I also think it's wrong to force ministers to marry a couple they do not agree with based on their religion. But, I do believe this will be the happy medium everyone will come to. I don't remember what state, but a bill was passed somewhere protecting ministers if they refuse to marry a gay couple based on their religious belief. You're right, it will prevail. Last Edit by:
Hound 8/12/12 - 12:07:28 am
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| #37 :: August 12th, 2012 @ 12:51 AM | |
| ghost Is Lonely 4,237 Posts 543 Achievements |
ain't it a fine life @Hound No, I must confess that I haven't done extensive research on the biological implications of homosexuality, and I didn't bring up the point prepared to give you evidence of it. But I do not believe homosexuality is a choice, since I have seen people I love go through pain caused by it that nobody would choose, so I must conclude then that it is natural, not the product of some temptation of Hell. And I have faith that science will one day soon come to prove my conclusion, and hopefully change the church's view of the matter. The studies may be sloppy, but they're progress, in one way or the other. let your worries go Last Edit by:
ghost 8/12/12 - 12:52:37 am
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| #38 :: August 12th, 2012 @ 1:33 AM | |
| Violerra Newbie 10 Posts 34 Achievements |
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| #39 :: August 12th, 2012 @ 3:30 AM | |
| Kylara Member  25 Posts 35 Achievements |
All in all, I don't believe anyone has a say in how someone feels or acts. It's basically none of anyone elses business. I used to be a pretty strong Christian and I never felt that homosexuality was a sin. I don't even agree with that statement or word. A man can love a man, I can love a man, and a woman can love a woman. Pretty simple. I think Christianity needs to get over it. There are WAY too many, and much more serious issues this world needs to deal with.
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| #40 :: August 12th, 2012 @ 5:24 PM | |
| dear Silly Spamming Sausage 499 Posts 84 Achievements |
@ violerra you speak of education and scientific research but i'd like to see something to back this up. "And a nice little tidbit of information, it has been proven scientific fact that people that are bigots or afraid/put off by gay people are significantly afraid of becoming gay because they are, in fact, homosexuals, whether it be gay, bisexual, or lesbian. And that has hundreds of studies over 30 years to back it up"--where is your source for this? i can say for certain that i disagree with homosexuality and i've never had a lesbian thought in my life. "Also, to clear something up, animals do not murder their own kind. Ever." are you serious? source 1. source 2. source 3. source4. i could go on. "And they also provide lessons and tactics for survival in the wild (i.e. education) to their young. It is humans that are on the unnatural side." this is a wild generalization. there are literally thousands of species that provide no guidance at all to their offspring. most fish, insects, sharks, snakes. many more take care of them for a short period of time before abandoning the. murdering their own young is not uncommon either. and more to the point, are you saying that humans are unnatural for not providing survival skills to their young? because i thought we had parents and guardians for a reason. "It's horrible when you are in my position, but to you, I'm sure it's all you've ever been taught and I'm sure it's all you will ever believe. And that's a good thing to find a faith like that." please don't assume things about other people's lives. i was born and raised atheist, my family born in china under heavy religious persecution. i became a christian only after i put in tons of research and thought and by God's grace, and i'm a much better and happier person for it. so don't patronize us, telling us our faith is "good" like a kid with a hobby that gets them out of trouble. it's far more than that; you're not the only person capable of reading and analyzing the bible (mind providing some examples of supposed "contradictions," by the way?) and taking courses. Last Edit by:
york 8/12/12 - 5:25:35 pm
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