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Seeking artist friends ; - ;
#1 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 7:31 PM
India
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Lately I've been really kicking things into gear and working extra hard to improve my art. HOWEVER, I'm realizing that drawing is a really lonely thing and definitely a challenge when working solo all the time. Although messaging artists occasionally on Tumblr or sending comments on dA is nice, I wish I had some artist friends to really talk to who can give me guidance and help me expand what I can do.

I'd really love to be able to talk to (a) more experienced artist(s) (tradition and digital) that can give me some guidance now and again, and pin point problem areas that I can't see. Doing studies is helpful, but I'm awful at disciplining myself to concentrate on the aspects that I really need to, and having another person to help focus me would be so great. And if not that, then an artist friend that I can maybe get to know and chat with more than the occasional hello and keysmash would make this drawing thing a little less lonely ;-;

Is there anyone who would be willing to sort of mentor/act as a figurative drill sergeant/ to me? Or just be an awesome new friend :3




Last Edit by: India 8/07/12 - 7:32:16 pm


#2 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 8:10 PM
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An amusing tale...

@India

though i wouldn't necessarily consider myself a pro artist, i love offering constructive criticism and helping out aspiring artists! :O i have a lot to learn myself, but hey, it's more fun working with others, as you said yourself! n_n


#3 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 8:14 PM
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@Noatak
Oh yay! I was getting scared that no one would wanna be my friend ; - ; haha
I've seen your thread in the Art Market! I really liked your stuff Do you have a Tumblr/dA to chat on? Or do you just prefer comments on here?



#4 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 8:20 PM
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An amusing tale...

@India

oh goodness ;_; hshf i know how that is, it's one reason i'm usually nervous to post in the forums~
i have both dA and tumblr! tumblr and deviantart~ though to be honest i'm on tumblr much more often than dA, but either one is fine. @ you @


#5 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 8:57 PM
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@Noatak

LMFAO! That video. + Like

Nice to meet you new Tumblr friend :3



#6 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 9:12 PM
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An amusing tale...

@India

oh gosh i know right xD and it's nice to meet you too! i'm sorry i don't have a tumblr specifically for art quite yet, but i've been considering making one. seeing yours just makes me want one even more uwu it'd probably be easier to communicate with if we're gonna be all artsy and stuff together as well!


#7 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 9:15 PM
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@Noatak

Yes! THAT is a fabulous idea I encourage you to make one when you have some time! It would be pretty cool if we could build a little community of artists and their art Tumblrs :3





#8 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 10:39 PM
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@India
I'm not a pro artist either, but I'd love to offer constructive criticism/be of artistic help/just be a friend! ^^
It's definitely more fun working with others and helping each other out :3


Last Edit by: Lunartiger 8/07/12 - 10:40:15 pm


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#9 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 10:53 PM
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@India

I'd suggest you join that art cult we have here, avant garde.
I don't think the app is intensive as far as cult apps go, so you could give it a shot. They have a nifty little community there c:

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Last Edit by: Chen 8/07/12 - 10:53:29 pm


#10 :: August 7th, 2012 @ 11:43 PM
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@India

I'll toss in my friend interest! I've been in need of more people I can chat with AND more artisty friends so hey! I can't promise I fall into the "more experienced artist friend" category but I'm always willing to offer advice or encouragement if asked. c:

Last Edit by: Cynicism 8/07/12 - 11:44:17 pm

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#11 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 12:37 AM
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@Lunartiger
Aww, yay! New friend Nice to meet you and I'm excited to discuss art things with you!

@Chen
-Hyperventilates-
i stalk your art
I've thought about joining that cult, but I was always a little insecure about being not good enough. But I think I may give applying a try because it seems like such a great community. Thanks for reminding me about it!

@Cynicism
Awesome! I-I think you're great at putting your characters in dynamic poses! I always have soo much trouble with that! (The sketching process takes me AGES because I can never get it right the first time.)



Last Edit by: India 8/08/12 - 12:38:18 am


#12 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 1:00 AM
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@India
Lol, yay stalkers? I do enjoy admirers better, though (aka drop a line or two) haha.
naw, if you have a sizable portfolio of past work and show a desire to improve and also help artists (really want to get into the community), you shouldn't have much trouble, and I think they will tell you why if they dont accept you.
Also, I think their next app season is october?

I don't feel too lonely art-ing by myself, actually.
Also, I have a pretty large collection of references and resources in my semi-private inspiration blog here (look under the navigation: tagged as /reference or /resource or /resources c: )

I don't have the time to do a lot of art critiquing, but I hope you can find something useful in there. The password is PLOSION

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#13 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 1:27 AM
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@Chen

Lmao, well I stalked cuz I was always so shy to speak up :3 I was scared you'd get annoyed cuz I bet you get a lot of keysmashing over your work as it is!

I think I'm gonna work on that portfolio, I have maybe 2 pieces that I'm not cringing at atm.

Thanks for showing me your inspiration blog! I'm gonna spend all night perusing this. And I'm going to follow your art blog if you don't mind! I've always wanted to but again, was too shy..

Edit: nevermind it's unfollowable ._.' Haha



Last Edit by: India 8/08/12 - 1:31:03 am


#14 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 1:31 AM
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@India

awh thank you~ 8 you 8 I know what you mean though, sketching actually takes me forever too. It's probably like... 80% of my process. XD
Anyway if you ever feel like chatting, I'm on dA, Tumblr, and Subeta most days. c: (By the way are you Paize on dA? Just me being nosy and curious~)

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#15 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 1:35 AM
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@Cynicism

What the poop how did you know! Haha



Last Edit by: India 8/08/12 - 1:35:20 am


#16 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 1:40 AM
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@India

LOL Because I'm psychic 8D
But not really. I track the users that visit my dA page, and I recognize all the recent names except that one. XD

I know you've only got one thing posted, but it's cool! Your shading is really nice~

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#17 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 2:24 AM
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@India I've never seen a thread like this before but now it makes so much sense. I'd love to be considered to take part in this friendship. D8 I'm a hobbyist at best but I'd love to have people to talk to about art with and whatnot, and I'm new to the site as well so any friends are good friends. Uhhh, this is my da oh god everything is so old


#18 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 3:03 AM
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@Cynicism

Oh! I am being tracked! Haha. Thank you ; - ; I actually think my shading needs a lot of work /cries


@york

JLKJDSF What an honour to have your friendship! Your art is amazing! I love how you paint hair, it's one of my biggest problem areas And the fabric in your Ophelia painting! Oh man /drooling Also I love girls with antlers so the things you draw are pretty much awesome.
Do you have an art blog as well? Or shall I just be stalking your dA?



#19 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 8:21 AM
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@India

naww, I don't bite, even though I might act like it to stop would-be art beggars

hey, progress has no shame (yay for putting dates on pieces

welll... it used to be open to following and reblogging, but I've made it private and password-protected... erm. ya. It's sort of explained in a post somewhere

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#20 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 10:18 AM
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@India

It's nice to meet you too!
I saw your dA, the piece you posted is pretty cool! I like the shading~~


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#21 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 11:16 AM
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@India

Naaaw~ Maybe some work, but then what artist in their right mind doesn't always think something they do needs work. XD You're good though, and I'm curious to see more~ c:

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#22 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 5:25 PM
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@India
yes i'd love to be art friends with you! i'm not sure whether i could be helpful, ever, but i'd try
do you have a tumblr i could follow? i'm not on dA anymore and i'll be in the hospital for a week so i can't log onto subeta properly!









#23 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 5:38 PM
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@India
I know exactly how you feel, if you ever want to chat I'd be happy to =3
I'm afraid I don't have a tumblr, I do have a deviantart account but it doesn't work well at my college so I don't bother with it often, though I do update/try to catch up at weekends, for chatting I'm most available here.
I really need to start working on some serious portfolio pieces myself, I think I've drawn one thing recently other than commission work that I'm proud of P=


#24 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 6:02 PM
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@Chen
That's really amazing improvement! I regret always scrapping my older pieces so I can't track my progress. And yeah, I saw the post. A bit sad but I'm glad that you're still posting some things It would be such a shame if you stopped creating art completely. If you don't mind me asking, how do you manage to balance school with drawing? I mean I think on dA you wrote something about it, and I feel like I'm going through something similar. I don't know if I'm making art too big of a priority when it shouldn't be, or what.

@Lunartiger
Ahh I'm looking back at it and I see so many things I wish I'd done differently ; - ; but thank you!

@Cynicism
Oh, you! Haha, I think you should teach me a thing or two about giving my people more dynamic poses. My brother said my stuff was static, and I was like, it's HARD okay. Gah~

@Machine
I really like that scenic piece you did, with the cliff side-- It pleases my eyes v - v haha. I indeedly do have tumblr! In fact I just followed you

@Shalashaska
:3 Yay! Thank you for being open to chat with! I will definitely come to you with many plights for help when drawing males. Can I ask why you don't draw women? Only because I notice a definite trend on Subeta where females are the preference for artists.

I'd love to see your portfolio pieces whenever you happen to finish them. I really admire your work! (It would be perfect if you created an art tumblr to act as a sort of gallery but I understand if you're reluctant, and I don't mean to sound pushy!)



Last Edit by: India 8/08/12 - 6:03:02 pm


#25 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 6:52 PM
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@India
I'll always be happy to help =D
It's nice to have someone to talk art with no one I know irl is interested =|

Mostly down to preference, partly down to style. I like quite angular lines, particularly in faces, and I've never found a way to incorporate that into females, as I'm leaning towards a more western-comic book style these days in my sketches, or at least trying to, I find my women looking better these days. A HUGE part of it comes from how bad I am at drawing lips. Avoiding lips on women will almost invariably make them look like effeminate men, now that I've bitten the bullet and I'm learning to draw lips (on both sexes) it's a big help.
But mostly I just don't like drawing women. Too curvy P= and it's harder to include detail, women don't show (unless they're low on body fat) muscle definition or tendon lines etc... and it's best to avoid some lines as it removes femininity, which is fine on manly women but otherwise... not so much.
There's also this vague trend that beauty can only be shown through supple young women (which classically wasn't true, though there was still a trend towards only young men).
And HAIR.
I love body hair, I like drawing it, I like to see how it flows and moves with the shape of the body just... I like it =P and I'm tired of image of men/women with little to no body hair. Only... I'm not great at drawing it. Yet.

I think a part of why females are more common here is that (at least I've heard a couple of people say this) many of the artists here are female, and have learnt to draw the human body by looking at themselves, a readily available model. You'll note that a lot of the female subjects in art here are very sympathetic to the female figure, rather than what's more commonly seen in women drawn by men.

I'd be happy to share. The overlay I just gave to my pet Colonel I think I'll continue to refine, maybe give it a simple background and I'll be counting that, I've been meaning to work more on my robots etc... and he's a good one to start with, I'm very pleased with him.

Ah I tried Tumblr, I really don't get on well with it P=

I'm totally working on a sketch now to have a man and a woman in the same image together just for practiceies.


#26 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 6:58 PM
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@India
I'm really late to this thread but if you still want more friends I could be one ;_____; i really lack artist friends and I agree that it's hard to improve on your own! I'm not a pro artist but I'd love somebody to chat with and share ideas!



#27 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 7:05 PM
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OH MY GOD I REALLY NEED FRIENDS LIKE RIGHT NOW I NEED SOMEONE TO SEND GIFTS THROW SNOWBALLS SEND FLOWERS CHAT SEND LONG MENSAGES WITH CAPS LOCK ON AND DANCE AND STUFF

I think no one's ever done a topic like this before? And it's such a good idea because a lot of people are kinda "alone" , like me P:
And I'm really antisocial (even on the internet), so I get nervous when posting at places -I guess that why I don't have any friends here after about 2 years haha
But I love talking about art and giving critics or doing redlines, so if you'd like feel free to talk to me ;; ;;
also, my tumblr and dA are in my signature...

[tumblr] [deviantart] [art shop]


#28 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 7:07 PM
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@Shalashaska
Omg, I always find your answers so entertaining
I think I'm the polar opposite when it comes to drawing. I like drawing curves while angular lines scare me away. It's easier for me to break down the female body than the male because I can readily define the breasts then the ribcage then the waist, hips, etc but when it comes to men everything is so.. straight. Plus I'm terrified of making males look effeminate so I tend to stay away from that.

Yes lips are complicated v - v I find them easy to botch. I feel like it makes or breaks a face since its so important to the character's expression.
I am also terrified of drawing hair that isn't on top of a head, LOL. The best mustache I can draw is something like the one on the pringle logo, if you know what I'm talking about.

You can draw robots, holy crap. I wanna learn to draw bad ass things like that ; - ; My robots are two cubes with eyes and a panel of buttons across the chest. And magnetic claws.

It's okay! I understand many people have an aversion to tumblr :d. I didn't really like it myself until I discovered that it made stalking people's art a lot easier.
I wanna see that sketch, I'm curious to see how you draw your women.

@IHOP
/Shakes hand vigourously
No you're never too late! Do you have a gallery of your art somewhere, or shall I chat with you on here?

@cakery
I feel the same way I want an awesome subeta friend too wahh ;o;
Oh you have wonderful art! It's nice to meet you and have you be available to talk to :3 Lemme just add you to my tumblr so I can follow your beautiful things * - * I'll definitely be seeking advice from you about quads and stuff, if you don't mind!
(Sorry I missed your post the first time around somehow! Oh eyes, you fail me.)



Last Edit by: India 8/08/12 - 8:37:38 pm


#29 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 8:22 PM
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@India

Quote:
If you don't mind me asking, how do you manage to balance school with drawing?


I didn't.

I've... um...
umm...
depression.


Sorry for the wall of text... I think I've summarized everything pretty much. I've finally been able to share my burden online, so now I'm working on trying to getting over my irrational fear of asking for help IRL

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Last Edit by: Chen 8/08/12 - 8:31:28 pm


#30 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 8:26 PM
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I... I feel the exact same way even though I'm super late like User not found (1): IHOP ;_; I uh, don't have many friends who are into art and it'd be really nice to have people to discuss it with and give/get critiques/suggestions. @India Does tumblr or DA help with meeting people who like to talk about art? I don't really understand either of them anymore haha.

@cakery
I just wanted to say that I think your coloring is beautiful!

@Shalashaska
Can I ask how you're practicing lips? Lots of photoreference studies? They're uh, really a weak point of mine too along with faces in general


#31 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 8:56 PM
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@Chen

Spoiler (click here to toggle)


@Kelso
I find both websites to be excellent resources to communicate with artists/get inspiration and critique. Tumblr especially helps track progress, I think, because you can go into your archives/the archives of others and see areas of improvement. I encourage you to make an art blog, and I can recommend to you some artists that I'm following if you do! Please let me know if you decide to get an account with either website so we can chat there!



Last Edit by: India 8/08/12 - 8:56:32 pm


#32 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 9:04 PM
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@India
Oddly enough I actually used to have the same problem when I was younger. My women were still masculine but my men were womanly 0.o but I think it came from being one of those people who learnt to draw humans from anime and manga >_> never ever should have done that.

I know what you're talking about XD
I started drawing moustaches with very little understanding of how they worked and drew them much the same, it took me an unreasonable about of time to learn that yes, they are made up of individual hairs, yes they do move with the lips and yes they can hide the top lip entirely.

Well I'm learning. Slowly. Metal Gear Solid machines are... right on queue with what I like to see in a robot, I also grew up watching Zoids: Chaotic Century. I have a taste for animal like robots, the way they look, move etc... The Big oh has also influenced what I look for in robots. Though The Big oh was a bit stand alone, I'm not a fan of humanoid giant mech, but it's so different to what I normally see + that nouveau look is ♥.
As it is for DRAWING them the course I'm on has helped a tonne, but Kieth Thompson has been a huge inspiration.
Ref links in case you don't know what I'm talking about and because some of this stuff is cool:
Metal Gear RAY, Metal Gear REX, Zoid: Lightning Saix, The Big O, Thompson's newest robot.

My sketch, featuring probably two characters I'll never regret finding (alas, I wish they were OCs ;_; ), ADAM and EVA, who I've always imagined as becoming incredibly close, though in a non-sexual way, mostly because of the weight their code names have P=
Link for possible NSFW, though there are no details.
I will paint this properly, I like it too much not to but... The question is... When?
I think Frank Frazetta is the only inspiration I have for drawing women ^^;

ASIGF! I can't just yap away like this without knowing anything about your work, what do you like to draw? What inspires you? *puts on doctor glasses and ott German accent* Sooo. Tell me about your self?

@Kelso
I'll admit, I've always been so bad with photo refs, I can use them but mostly I need to understand the mechanics bones, muscle... before I can draw a figure. Drawing humans has been a painful process for me as the only times I can effectively use photo refs is for bony appendages, feet, hands etc... I'm getting better at using photos but I still shy away from them so I've not picked up on drawing lips from photos.
As I already have quite a solid human drawing style, just one that needs perfecting more, I actually found a way of drawing lips from comics, particularly one that wasn't too too far off how I was drawing.

I personally draw lips with thinner, broken lines, they don't need to be heavily defined. Avoid looking at animation for refs, I used to do that all the time and could never figure out why they could get away with such think lines on lips until I realised the effect was lost in movement. Varying the thinkness as per the angle is also helpful, not only in show that they have dimension rather than being stuck onto the surface but also in giving the face more shape and showing better the angle at which it's held.

Personally I don't think this is a very good example, but oh well.
First image: what I used to do / still do sometimes according to the situation. Just drew a line indicating the curve inwards between the chin and bottom lip.
Second Image: define in a thinner broken line the edge of the lip, colour it/shade it to slightly darker than the skin tone, according to character etc...
Bottom Image: looking up instead of looking down.


I've only just started drawing like this though P= so I'm not very good yet.

Last Edit by: Shalashaska 8/08/12 - 9:13:55 pm


#33 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 9:31 PM
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@India

oh ya, I meant "I didn't" as "I didn't balance it out, I didn't work it out"

spoilering just for the sake of not wanting to look so attention-seeking, ha...


Anyhow, how are you on the art/school teeter-totter?

I plan to time myself on my art projects (and subeta) instead of letting me just go whenever I suddenly feel inspired to keep working (*cough* until 9 in the morning). Like, 2 hours max and I have to put myself to bed, and only after I've finished my school work. Promising to myself and fulfilling these promises will also help build my self-worth.

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Last Edit by: Chen 8/08/12 - 9:35:32 pm


#34 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 10:25 PM
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@India
I think I'll see your messages easier on Subeta. I do have a dA, but atm my gallery is pretty old and empty! Not to mention I have like 230983509 notifications I need to swim through. And my tumblr is pretty much tv shows sfldgj. Hahaha I'm Kelly by the way! I'll send you a friend request.



#35 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 10:26 PM
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@Shalashaska

Anime inspired me to draw, too. The problem is that I've built up a habit where I draw the eyes slightly larger than I intend to a lot of the time. And making a conscious effort to remedy that = a lot of distorted faces because I'm not used to the proportions.

I always have trouble drawing hair in general, but especially facial hair like eyebrows and stuff. I find that such things are hard to paint/shade.

I have to ask-- do you have a mustache yourself? Hahaha I don't know why it just occured to me to ask, you are like, infamous on subeta for your love of mustaches.

Though I don't really draw robots, I have a fascination for armour and stuff which is close enough :3 I haven't wartched those shows before but those images look awesome.

Oh my goodness you call that a sketch? It's so clean and pretty. Please remind me to never show you my sketches, I will die of embarrassment.

Since you mentioned painting, can I ask what your process is? I find that I'm sort of all over the place when it comes to painting -- I never know if I should do line work, or just leave everything sketchy and paint on a different layer under it, or paint on the same layer, or what. Please advise! xD

@Chen

Spoiler (click here to toggle)


I don't even know! For university, I mean I'm not really considering pursuing art academically at all, but I feel like I'm not 'ready' or made to study something that is technical rather than creative. I don't know. I just want to feel like I'm doing something substantial, but I'm also held back by the fear that I just don't have that type of brain or something.

That sounds like a good way to keep art in your life and maintaining all your other obligations with school

@IHOP

Subeta it is! Please comment me anytime :3 I look forward to chatting about art or anything, yay!




Last Edit by: India 8/08/12 - 10:42:47 pm


#36 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 10:40 PM
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@India
Yeah I still draw noses too long =< I sketch eyes about the right size then the lineart makes them larger >_<

Blonde body hair is the worst, I never know if I'm drawing it right as it's so fine =_=; dark is bloody easy in comparison and it's still hard to draw.

Sadly no, I'm transgendered =S I guess you could say the moustache obsession is partly an aspiration (there's quite a lot of envy in there too). It's probably one of the reasons I'm not so fond of drawing women actually ^^;

Oddly enough I'm not so big on drawing armour, not old fashioned types anyway, I don't mind modern stuff so much. ^^;

Well, a refined sketch, a sketchy sketch is more like what I threw at Sin earlier. LINL.
I've a long history of never doing anything more than like what I showed you, but I'm determined to draw and paint fully finished images, I'm tired of drawing quick sketches and calling them done.

Ah, I'm still learning at digital painting I'm afraid, I've tried a few things, this one will be new again, I can show you the works in progress if you like, and you can see if this attempt is successful XD
I do suggest separating things out on layers though, that way you can move things around easily. HOWEVER I also suggest painting out problems, rather than just erasing and redoing them, it gives more texture to the work and generally looks better, it's also a good habit for traditional work.


#37 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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@India

Yay!! Would you like me to call you India, or something else? And just a warning sometimes I type really bad with horrible grammar and etc etc and capslock hahaha but usually only when I'm really mad or excited or idk some extreme emotion. What do you like to draw?! Currently I'm trying to kick a habit of fanarting.. I keep drawing fanart and no original ones whatsoever



#38 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 10:55 PM
India
is a SUPER USER!!!

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@Shalashaska

I have trouble with noses too! ; - ; They are.. strange.
To me, body hair is easy to draw in THEORY. And then when I try it, it's like, what is this xD haha. But you're already a ways ahead of many people in the drawing boys department :3

Oh no! Well at least for now you can compensate by drawing them. I personally am glad I do not have a mustache. They look like a pain to maintain, and they look like stuff can get stuck in their easily > - > (Sorry for digression)

That is still a far better sketch than how mine look. It's because my lines are all over the place-- I can never just draw them fluidly.
Works in progress would be wonderful, if it's not too much trouble! I have high expectations of you :3

@IHOP
India is fine! :3 Don't worry I tend to keysmash a lot myself, and I don't really mind if you use chat speak or anything LOL my text is atrocious when I talk to rl friends. I don't really draw fanart too much, because I'm not really.. a fan of too many things D8 And I've been really negligent in designing my OCs so usually I just doodle random faces or do freebies on here for people. What fandoms do you draw for?



Last Edit by: India 8/08/12 - 10:58:52 pm


#39 :: August 8th, 2012 @ 11:06 PM
First Mate Felix

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@India;; i know i'm late to this party, but if you're still looking for art friends i'll gladly be one.
i'm a terrible loner when it comes to art, and it'd be nice to have someone who i can confer with on all the things i suck at on tips how to get better.



#40 :: August 9th, 2012 @ 12:14 AM
kelly
Is Lonely

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@India WOOO awesome! haha I really like capslock i use it too much.. my phone's font is set to an all-caps font so every text i send looks like caps xD I'm horrid with OCs, I create them and then just let them sit there forever. I don't really focus on particular fandoms, I just draw whatever inspires me atm. Which is my problem I guess - I need non-fandom things that inspire me! Can't seem to find any though -____- What kind of mediums do you like to use?

@Noatak @Lunartiger @Cynicism @york @Machine @Shalashaska @cakery @Kelso and whoever reads this

omg all these pings what i feel claustrophobic in this textbox... anyways, if you guys would like to be friends with me too i'm all for it i'm on subeta, dA, and tumblr so whichever one you wanna use to contact me is fine. i'm bisbon on dA and my art tumblr is quitte - my tumblr is 99.99% inspiration though and i barely upload on dA. need more confidence in my art



Last Edit by: User not found (1): IHOP 8/09/12 - 12:34:52 am