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C R E A T E A D |
Being open minded vs Being Selectively Open Minded
| #1 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 5:40 AM | |
 LizzayMember   19 Posts 121 Achievements  
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Hey all!
So, I guess this is the place to get out how I've been thinking. For the purpose of this debate, I'm not going to state my opinion on gay marriage or incest. Here, are just my thoughts. People say that they are open minded because they support gay marriage. Usually, this is argued with points such as: - Love is love - why should it matter if the person has the same genitals as you? People can't help who they fall in love with. - Homosexual couples can raise a family just as well as (and sometimes better than) a straight couple. - Homosexual couples can't reproduce (well, minus costly procedures) but they can still adopt many children in need of parents. So I guess what irritates me, is that a lot of "open minded" people who have no problem ramming their beliefs down other people's throats tend to be against incest couples. Why though, should a brother and sister not be able to fall in love like a man and another man? I realize that society states that incest is wrong, it's disgusting, and right now you're probably thinking the same thing because that's how we've been taught to think. But at one point, didn't we also think being homosexual was wrong? Why can't a sister fall in love with her brother? If love is love and you can't decide who you fall for? Then there's the whole argument that incest leads to 'mutated' children, but ultimately, even if it did, why can't they too adopt like a homosexual couple can? Cousins could raise a baby together, in love, and teach that child the same things a regular couple could, couldn't they? Being raised by a homosexual couple doesn't make a person gay, so why would being raised by an incest partnership result in a child who also was prone to incest? I'm not saying anyone has to support incest, I guess it just really bothers me when people are hypocritical by saying they are open minded and yet don't support ALL couples. In that case, a person is not being open minded; they are being selectively open minded. Feel free to post your own opinions.
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| #2 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 8:12 AM | |
| Anashta Funky Forum Feli   169 Posts 66 Achievements |
I happen to be a queer female but I'm not exactly rooting for incest myself. I'm glad you brought this up but I don't feel that incest and lgbt should be compared to one another. I'm guessing that a huge part of 'anti-incest' has to do with all the incest related molestation and attacking. It happens SO much more than people realize, and I can understand why it's terrifying to even think about, let alone be brought up to discussion with certain audiences. I quite frankly feel for those people. Another point I'd like to bring up is that every time I see someone pursuing another member of their family, their intentions are usually lewd and sleazy. Which makes it all the more difficult for me to take seriously -as far as relationships go. The last person who spoke to me about incest as a matter of fact, talked about plans of how he would get his sister drunk and try to take advantage of her at a party. :I I did not support him obvioulsy. I don't know @Lizzay: The more and more people try to make it a real thing, the less respect I have for it. I've never seen an incest couple that involved any real romance in their love-life. This said and done, I don't think America is quit ready for incest. Oh and speaking of America, many of them are Catholic or Christian and the bible is against it. I would like to state that I don't agree with ALL of these things, I'm just pointing out some of the reasons as to why it's so taboo in the first place. I'd like to think of myself as open-minded, sure. But given all the negative impressions I've got, I don't think I can be blamed. I still think I'm quite open minded. Last Edit by:
Anashta 8/21/12 - 8:51:47 am
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| #3 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 11:01 AM | |
| Puck_n_Loki Gets Around  4,691 Posts 455 Achievements |
 @Anashta Let's replace some of your examples with other words. The last gay man who openly talked to me about homosexuality said he would get his friend drunk at the bar and then have sex with him. Homosexual attack and molestations happen so much more than people realize. Every time I see a homosexual trying to pursue a homosexual relationship their intentions are lewd and sleezy. Many of those statements were and still are the reason people thought/think homosexuality is disgusting and not real love. Personally @Lizzay as long as the relationship is mentally/emotionally healthy, no one's getting abused, and people are sure their feelings are romantic and not just familial. well hell if people can manage to find love the more power to them. I don't support, however, parent/child relationships or any relationships with large age gaps where the older person played a role in raising the younger one.
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| #4 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 11:30 AM | |
| Hound Is Lonely  940 Posts 296 Achievements |
  I've always hated the term, 'Open Minded.' What does that mean? You don't want to make moral judgments? You don't want to call anyone the bad guy? You don't have enough experience? You accept everything? Everyone says they're open minded. If someone doesn't agree with you, suddenly they're just closed minded. But your mind isn't opened, it's enclosed in a skull. It's merely a perspective. Essentially, it's a debate between tolerable and intolerable. I agree with the points Anashta mentioned. It's unfair to link LGBT and incest together. One also doesn't come across many reputable brother and sister, mother and son, father and daughter, relationships. Often it does have a lot to do with crime. I believe that if there is a responsible, loving couple, they wouldn't publicly acknowledge their relationship as incestuous. I understand America isn't like the rest of the world in this respect. Outside, it's not that abnormal to marry your first cousin. Although I still think close family, like the examples mentioned above, is still rather taboo. @Lizzay Quote: I'm not saying anyone has to support incest, I guess it just really bothers me when people are hypocritical by saying they are open minded and yet don't support ALL couples. So you'll support abusive couples? What about one where one of them is 13 and the other is 40? Quote: I realize that society states that incest is wrong, it's disgusting, and right now you're probably thinking the same thing because that's how we've been taught to think. This isn't something we believe because we were taught too, but it's also ingrained deep in our biology. It's healthier for the gene pool if we avoid incest. Last Edit by:
Hound 8/21/12 - 11:32:02 am
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| #5 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 11:43 AM | |
| stijn The Doctor  13,350 Posts 755 Achievements |
it's all about tolerance anyway. homo haters can't help it that they fear/don't understand gay people. same goes for everyone regarding everything. you are the way you are because of a lot of factors and thats FINE (just dont harm people against their will).
we are ALL selectively openminded. join #stijn |
| #6 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 12:02 PM | |
| Anashta Funky Forum Feli 169 Posts 66 Achievements |
@Puck_n_Loki: I understand what you're trying to say, but that's not how I see it. With any group of people there's always going to be some douche trying to get someone drunk for the sake of lust. It's a sad truth. I had just pointed that one scenario out to further my opinion on incest. But really, taking advantage of someone will make me sick regardless of wether they where straight or homosexual. =/ If you could imagine comparing the two! Truth is no one will ever know just how often these things go down. Homosexuals getting attackd, incest related molestations.. If I where to place a bet I'd estimate that it was the incest related molestations. Just because sex offenders will go for the young and venerable. "Every time I see a homosexual trying to pursue a homosexual relationship their intentions are lewd and sleazy." To the contrary actually. I have seen deep meaningful relationships within the LGBT community but I'm still waiting on the day for incest supporters to back up their claims. "Many of those statements were and still are the reason people thought/think homosexuality is disgusting and not real love." When I said "people" I wasn't talking about myself. I meant the general people. I'd like to point out that my first post here was not necessarily my opinion in it's entirety. The OP wanted to know some reasons as to why incest is taboo and I delivered, not that I agreed with everything I stated there. Notice how I never said I was against it? I'm actually on the fence with this whole thing. I wasn't kidding when I said that I'm waiting on the day to see a bountiful incest relationship. That's not impossible. ~ And like I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't feel that incest and lgbt should be compared to one another. Last Edit by:
Anashta 8/21/12 - 12:04:15 pm
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| #7 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 1:22 PM | |
| Puck_n_Loki Gets Around 4,691 Posts 455 Achievements |
@Anashta dude, dude, I'm gay. If I'm understanding you correctly I think I came across wrong. Those aren't my opinions at all. I was just pointing out how when you change it from one to another suddenly it sounds bigoted and ridiculous.
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| #8 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 1:39 PM | |
| Lizzay Member 19 Posts 121 Achievements |
@Hound
When I said ALL types of couples, I meant healthy couples. I mean even in polygamy, if all involved partners are happy and having their needs met, why should anyone judge that? Specifically, those that say they are so "open" to things. Even with large age gaps, though I certainly don't agree with it, who's to say they're both not happy. Maybe they ARE using each other, maybe he just wants someone young and she wants money, who knows... but if they are both having their wants/needs met and are happy with it, why should anyone else care? (For arguments sake, I still don't agree with it but I've never stated that I am open minded.) In response to: "This isn't something we believe because we were taught too, but it's also ingrained deep in our biology. It's healthier for the gene pool if we avoid incest." NOT to say that I'm against being homosexual, but is it not healthier for the gene pool if we avoid that as well? I realize we are over populated but if suddenly everyone in the world was gay/born gay etc, and we DID NOT have the medical advances to support birth between a homosexual couple, then the population would die off. Yes a lot of incest couples come from lust/abuse/etc, but so do other couples. Here I am talking about purely healthy, consenting couples between any partners.
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| #9 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 2:13 PM | |
Made a Living  1,858 Posts 485 Achievements |
I think family members should be able to have consensual relationships. From what I understand, the risk of birth defects is not horrifically high (if you want me to get sciencey I will, but right now I'll leave it at that) and we do things that are bad for the gene pool all the time.
Quote By @Lizzay: NOT to say that I'm against being homosexual, but is it not healthier for the gene pool if we avoid that as well? Some people are carrying genes that are detrimental to the gene pool. If those people are gay, then the likelihood that they pass those genes on is reduced.
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| #10 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 2:16 PM | |
| Hound Is Lonely 940 Posts 296 Achievements |
@ Quote: From what I understand, the risk of birth defects is not horrifically high (if you want me to get sciencey I will, but right now I'll leave it at that) No, no please. I would love to hear. From my understanding, it takes quite a few generation before the problems begin to develop, but those problem can be rather 'big.' @Lizzay Quote: NOT to say that I'm against being homosexual, but is it not healthier for the gene pool if we avoid that as well? A homosexual can't even touch the gene pool, it is naturally impossible for them to have children. An incestuous couple, given they are male and female, and within respectable age and condition, can produce a child naturally. Like I said, it's unfair to compare these two things. They're different concepts, that do not intertwine nor reflect with each other. The mindset isn't even in the same ball park. They are separate issues, require separate morality, and cannot be compared. [Of course disregarding the fact that said incestuous couple can be gay, but that's not what's being discussed here.] Quote: Even with large age gaps, though I certainly don't agree with it, who's to say they're both not happy. Maybe they ARE using each other, maybe he just wants someone young and she wants money, who knows... but if they are both having their wants/needs met and are happy with it, why should anyone else care? It possible said individual does not know they're unhappy, nor do they understand said relationship could be hurting them. It's entirely possible that someone might not have enough experience or knowledge to understand the dynamic between their relationship, even if they're being 'fed.' Do you think this is true? That's why people need to care, so no one gets hurt and we can create a safe, healthy and happy community among ourselves. Why should we care about people who want to commit suicide then? It their decision. Why should we care about people with eating disorders, or people who abuse drugs? That's why people care about relationships they believe are unhealthy, because they believe people, or the world around them is going to be hurt, more often the people. Last Edit by:
Hound 8/21/12 - 2:20:35 pm
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| #11 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 2:26 PM | |
| Anashta Funky Forum Feli 169 Posts 66 Achievements |
@Puck_n_Loki: Quote By @Puck_n_Loki:
suddenly it sounds bigoted and ridiculous. Welcome to America lol.
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| #12 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 2:43 PM | |
| Lizzay Member 19 Posts 121 Achievements |
@ Hound Quote:
I think that's an entirely different subject. But to be honest, no I don't think we should get involved. Everyone is given one life, and it's their choice how they live it. I don't think it's the responsibility of others to "help" people if they are not asking for help. If someone wants to commit suicide, it is their life to take. I realize it will affect the friends/family members, etc, but it is still their life and their choice. I don't think it's our right to go and look at a couple and say "she's young, she must be getting taken advantage of" or even, that she might be getting taken advantage of. It's her life, and if she is being taken advantage of she's probably aware of it and is choosing not to care. It's the same in regular relationships where one part is providing more for the other. They realize that the other person isn't contributing and it is their choice to leave, or to stay and accept this fact. If I want to eat McDonalds every day, all day. That's my choice. And yes it's unhealthy but if someone came up to me and told me that it was bad and disgusting, I'd probably be angered that they felt the had the right to impose on my lifestyle. Even if I wasn't aware it was unhealthy, I wouldn't want someone else pointing it out because they thought I needed 'help.'
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| #13 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 2:49 PM | |
Made a Living 1,858 Posts 485 Achievements |
Quote By @Hound: No, no please. I would love to hear. From my understanding, it takes quite a few generation before the problems begin to develop, but those problem can be rather 'big.' That agrees with what I'm saying. To clarify, one generation of children produced from one incestuous coupling does not have a horrifically high rate of birth defects. I never said that the birth defects that can occur as a result of incestuous couplings aren't serious. EDIT: Okay, the link is skipping out on me, but you can get to it by googling the title. Here's what it says. Quote By "Consanguinity, Human Evolution, and Complex Diseases" by A. Bittles and M. Black of the National Academy of the Sciences of the United States of America: Mortality in first-cousin progeny is ≈3.5% higher than in nonconsanguineous offspring, although demographic, social, and economic factors can significantly influence the outcome. and Quote: Using nonconsanguineous progeny as controls, estimates of the excess level of congenital defects in first-cousin offspring have ranged from 0.7% to 7.5% (64–68), but the Latin American Collaborative Study of Congenital Malformation based on 34,1902 newborns found a significant association with consanguinity only for hydrocephalus, postaxial polydactyly, and bilateral oral and facial clefts (69). Last Edit by:
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| #14 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 3:05 PM | |
| Hound Is Lonely 940 Posts 296 Achievements |
@Lizzay We're getting off topic. Basically you believe we have no right to get involved in other people's lives, even if we are genuinely trying to help them? Which is how you shape your views, on incest and so forth? @ Thank you.
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| #15 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 3:20 PM | |
 LypsylIs a Master Chef!  9,544 Posts 1,250 Achievements |
The first thing I thought when reading the title of this post was:
"Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out" We all make choices on what to believe, moral, ethical, and yes even the "eww" factor. For me it often comes down to "who gets hurt?" Consensual sex between any two (or more people) doesn't inherently hurt anyone. The key word here is consent. The thing is consent is a slippery concept. Is a person who doesn't specifically say "no" consenting? I strongly believe they are not. There are other situations where someone may not say "no" might even say "yes" but they are coerced. Again that's not consensual. I believe that when you have an incestuous relationship, there are so many other factors involved that can make it a situation of dubious consent, that it shouldn't be allowed. All of these factors make it very difficult to determine if an incestuous sexual relationship is consensual or not, which means the potential for harm is vast. Any sexual relationship has the potential to cause harm - ask anyone who's had a break-up! But some have much greater inherent potential to cause serious harm and so no, I don't believe that approving of some relationships and disapproving of others is "closed-minded" or hypocritical. @Lizzay - actually there are biological and genetic reasons for homosexuality being a successful evolutionary path. There are a number of theories of why this might be so, but the very fact that the 'gay gene' hasn't weeded itself out of the gene pool means that it 'works' -i.e. one way or another, the gene gets passed on to the next generation.
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| #16 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 3:26 PM | |
| RedSekhmet Do you have a life?  6,788 Posts 863 Achievements |
 Quote By @Lizzay:
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| #17 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 5:38 PM | |
| Lizzay Member 19 Posts 121 Achievements |
@RedSekhmet
Quote: If a child is young when introduced into a relationship where said child is being take advantage or being abused in any manner, then no the child does not know that especially if they have no basis for comparison or even worse if they have grown up in a household where the hurt is a part of their every day life. For you to say "well they probably know and don't care" shows a blinding amount of apathy towards victims of predators. If there is an incestuous relationship, or in fact any relationship, occurring in which one party is being hurt emotionally or physically by their partner or being unfairly controlled, friends and family(assuming the family is not in on the abuse) should step forwards to protect that person. Sorry, I realize it's pretty off the topic but my point was between consenting, adult relationships. Obviously a child cannot make that sort of decision on their own, and yes if a father/daughter combo was involved I should think people would step in for a child - just as one would for a 12 year old dating a 20 year old. If the couple is let's say 30, and the woman is abusing the man, should the family step in? I don't know. That man is choosing to stay in the relationship, but obviously our human instinct is to protect. But if he refuses the help, and insists that he is happy with the relationship as it is, abusive or not, then that is his choice to live that way. We all have the right to live at risk. @Hound Quote: We're getting off topic. Basically. When the decision is between adults who are capable of making their own choices (meaning they are cognitively aware), I don't think it's anyone business but their own unless the SEEK the help you are 'genuinely trying to give'. Sorry I don't make it my business to go and tell a smoker that he's killing himself. Now, this is also assuming I don't know the person. If I see my husband becoming obese with an unhealthy diet, I would try to help him, I suppose. I know that he values my opinion - but I wouldn't force my help on him. It's his choice to eat what he wants. And ultimately, if he still chose to be obese and I had a problem with it, it's then my choice to leave him. I suppose both of these are off topic. What should it matter if ANY couple is capable of reproduction? Some couples, healthy as they are, choose not to reproduce. So despite the risks involved - a happy, consenting adult incest couple should be allowed. Love is love, is it not? Who is to say they even want children? And if they do, they could always adopt.
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| #18 :: August 21st, 2012 @ 6:20 PM | |
| RedSekhmet Do you have a life? 6,788 Posts 863 Achievements |
Quote By @Lizzay:
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| #19 :: August 22nd, 2012 @ 6:01 AM | |
| Satis Only has Room for One  758 Posts 206 Achievements |
@Lizzay
Being open-minded doesn't mean not questioning things before naively supporting them. And you cannot easily compare the issue of support of homosexuality and the support of incest like they are analogous. It is not hypocritical to say that your are open-minded about things, but then choose to not support a particular issue. Being open-minded means that you are open to the possibility of these things without instantly closing down and refusing to consider arguments for or against it at all. Personally, I am conflicted about this particular issue. On one hand, I am of the belief that as long as consenting adults are involved in the relationship, then there should be nothing to say that they cannot pursue it so long as it is not directly harming anyone else. The trouble, as pointed out previously, is the issue of consent. There are quite a few studies that suggest that in regard to sexual abuse, 25%-33% of perpetrators are family members. So even if a family member is 'consenting' to the relationship, have they been groomed into consenting? This is where incest for me gets a little hazy, and crosses those boundaries a bit. We prosecute teachers and others who work closely with young people for engaging in a relationship as they have unnecessary power over their young victims, what is to say a family member is not doing the same? Then there is the potential social and genetic issues arising from normalising incest. As previously stated, the risks of genetic complications in a single incest couple is quite small, but then what about the potentials genetically if these single instances became more prevalent. We would limit the biodiversity of the human population. Granted, this would take quite a lot of incestuous unions to have any significant impact, although it is something worth considering. Add to that, I personally dislike the idea of having a relationship with family members, and there have been studies highlighting the fact that women are naturally repulsed by male family member's scent. So on the whole I generally do not think it is a great step forward for our society, but I can still be open-minded enough so that if someone were to come up with a compelling counter-argument, I can still change my mind about the matter at hand.
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| #20 :: August 22nd, 2012 @ 10:57 AM | |
| Puck_n_Loki Gets Around 4,691 Posts 455 Achievements |
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| #21 :: August 22nd, 2012 @ 12:04 PM | |
is a Skilled Hooker  4,896 Posts 767 Achievements |
 openminded =/= automatic supportopenmindedness doesn't even mean necessarily supporting everything, because then you'd be supporting all sides of controversial issues, and these sides often have points that exclude the views of the opposite side. It's more about being willing to listen to other ideas or opposing ideas and accepting a viewpoint (if they're logically intact), though you don't necessarily have to agree with it. Personally, I believe that that nobody is truly openminded, or at least nobody is born openminded. You can become more openminded about things as you gain experience and know more about the world and hear (valid) arguments from many viewpoints, but we never are initially accepting of everything. ...And there are values that society won't give up, like "life is precious", which makes things like cold-blooded murder of a child a crime no matter how you look at it. Anyway, the point is to hear reasons first, not automatically going "I'M OPENMINDED, I AGREE WITH YOU ALREADY". That just makes "openminded" people naive and gullible. If there's absolutely no manipulation or violence involved in an incestuous relationship between adults (and they're not flaunting it in my face... that goes for about everything though) then I don't really have a problem with that. I just hope they're using protection... heh. It's their choice if they want to make incest babies, though I think such couples (and everybody in general) needs to assess their readiness for parenthood in this kind of relationship and the possible trouble that kid might go through because of the nature of that relationship. I'm somewhat indifferent to raising children in an incestuous relationship and some gay relationships -- I mean, I'd at least try to respect people in such a situation. Parenting is such a nasty topic though and so varied in methods, so generalizing methods of parenting by race, culture or family type is generalizing too far. There are good and bad gay parents just like there are good and bad straight couple parents, straight single parents and all over there are people who become parents for the wrong reasons (pressure from hasty in-laws wanting to see children, raising a child for "therapeutic reasons", that their life will improve/get welfare if they have a kid... the list goes on). I think that some LGBT couples do want kids for all the right reasons but don't really consider or prepare their kid for the intolerance of the outside world, like being bullied for having two moms. It's a lot of pressure to put on a child, who doesn't get to choose his/her family while the couple gets to choose to get together to raise a child in that kind of situation. Anyway, others have pointed out, it's common for abuse to occur through incestuous relationships (*cue "my uncle touched me when I was five* stories), which in conjunction with not publicly and socially condoning such relationships, I think is good enough reason for incest to be against the law. Last Edit by:
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| #22 :: August 22nd, 2012 @ 3:50 PM | |
| Lizzay Member 19 Posts 121 Achievements |
@Satis
Quote: Being open-minded doesn't mean not questioning things before naively supporting them. And you cannot easily compare the issue of support of homosexuality and the support of incest like they are analogous. It is not hypocritical to say that your are open-minded about things, but then choose to not support a particular issue. Being open-minded means that you are open to the possibility of these things without instantly closing down and refusing to consider arguments for or against it at all. So okay, then a person who is homophobic can also be open-minded. Given that they are 'open' to the arguments and are questioning both sides. But ultimately, they choose to think homosexuality is wrong. I think originally what had been bothering me was the people who are 'pro-gay' and say they are open minded but then refuse to be open to the concept of a consenting, adult, incest couple. I'm not necessarily saying that they need to agree to it but I think if someone is going to call themselves open-minded then they need to be ready to be open to things that they might think are 'gross' or 'wrong' on first instinct.
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