Custom Wearable Pawn Shop



We will be closing the purchasing page of the Custom Wearable Pawn Shop on February 1st.

You will still be able to sell your CWs to the pawn shop but there will no longer be a way to browse or purchase items back, unless we open the page for a special event.

User Avatar: 1
Posted by: Keith
01/5/17 9:02 pm Leave Comment
SpectrumSurfer
Aww.... This was the best way for me to buy hand me downs at a reasonable price. :(
0
MarissaUnderground
The pawn shop problem explains why most CWs have been made private anymore - to prevent people from selling CWs there. Getting rid of the CW Pawn shop will benefit CW sellers so they don't have to lock so many items all the time.
0
Unsighted
well, this is disappointing :c
1
Zyrabella
I would like to now the reasoning behind this as well. I'm really bummed. I like buying from the pawn shop for wishlist items.
1
Doe
@Reaper All I can say is, it will definitely see a lot of use. Haha.
0
Reaper
@Doe

Right?!?! I was like...what is this magical thing you have created -tears of joy- If I didn't need to go to bed I'd start doing random searches to test it too haha.
0
Doe
@Reaper Searching random stuff right now and it's so much better than before! Just amazing to be able to search and it works.
0
Reaper
@Doe

Definitely try out the search! It's going to make finding things so much easier for us all.
0
Doe
@Reaper Exactly, you just can't get everything, so you deal and move on. Not much else left to do. Attacking people certainly isn't going to help and makes people less likely to want to release or do business with you.



And the new forum search sounds awesome! I just saw it and haven't tried it out yet, but if it's as great as you're saying it is, that alone will make me so, so very happy! I'm glad it's working so well for you, too.



I'll be happy, as well. I like when Subeta is running smoothly and everyone is, more or less, peaceful. Haha.
0
Reaper
@Doe

Yeah, I'm sometimes bummed that I can't catch slots on stuff but I usually do the same as you, just shrug it off, add it to my wishlist if I still want it once it's made it on site. And there are some amazing items that are private that I'd love to own, but they're private for one reason or another so I just let it go, stick it on the wishlist, hope that one day they'll sell a public copy or trade one or something. I can see how it would breed resentment, because there was a time back in the day where I found myself getting resentful of so many of them, but one day I just kinda went "well, it's just a little more like real life honestly, since I can't get everything I want there either" and let it go and felt so much better haha.



I'm hoping that the proposed ideas we've seen so far make it on site sooner rather than later and work out better overall. The new forum search thing being tested is making me so happy - it just searched an item name for me and returned all the results with the name typed out but also all the ones where they used the code to make it hoverable in the post and I just got the biggest wave of relief because this is going to make finding what things initially slotted for so I'm giving out accurate prices on crap I sell that I don't use so much easier /diesofjoy



Hopefully things start working better for all of us and we can move past the insanity that this news post created and get happy again haha.
0
Doe
@Aloysius You're welcome and I'm glad that I can help bring a voice into the matter, as a buyer. You've put some great comments out there, too, so thank you for those.





@Reaper Yeah, I've been fine with CWs, in general, ever since they came out. I love them and am happy it gives artists and CW makers a way to be creative and add things to the site that a lot of us would have never even imagined. I wasn't trying to be personal, I don't think you're all just being greedy, but just giving a feel from a buyer of how it feels/looks. It sucks from the side of buyers and sellers and I just want everyone to see/understand as much of both sides as possible and hope the staff rushes out the changes as soon as they can, so things can, hopefully, change for the better. I can't say much about people who get upset because they missed a batch, it's just not something that I get upset about and I can't make others see that, you weren't there, that's not the fault of the seller. I know others probably wouldn't want to get as serious, but when my favorite artists would announce a date, I'd put an alarm in my phone and be there five minutes early, ready with my post. If you really want an item, you have to be there. I'd miss out a few times, doing that, but I'd never get upset at the artist. It was just how it was. Plus, the site would go down randomly or lag, so even if you were at the right time, by the time you'd refresh or the site would fully load, you'd be outside the number of slots. Again, not the seller's fault. Getting some buyers to understand that is too grand of a feat for anyone.

As for private slotting, I definitely understand it (because I've seen reasons for people to private slot, such as people being upset at an artist for having one certain item private, when most of their items are public and unlimited, or making very unnecessary comments on people's items that they don't even intend to buy), but it can suck for items you want. Unfortunately, there's not much us, as buyers, can do. It also breeds a little resentment when we see so many sellers saying they can't fill batches. It's like two sides of the extreme; either people can't fill batches or the items you really want are private or very limited. That, I don't even know how it can be solved. On one hand, we could do away with privates, but then sellers have the right to refuse service to someone who is making trouble for them. Maybe a staff-reviewed blacklist for shops? I say staff-reviewed because it shouldn't be full of "this person disagreed with me about a movie, so I won't sell them CWs', but more "this person came on my board and attacked my art or me, personally, so I want to block them from buying." I'm hoping they lower slotting by half and, maybe, let sellers increase the number in future batches, if they'd like to. That way, if it is popular, you can up a batch to 10-15, if you'd like.



And it's okay. I think a lot of us are just writing and not really clarifying, especially if it's a long post and you're trying to rush it., which is usually me And thank you. It's nice to have some civil conversation without a bunch of name-calling and being completely rude. I'd rather get my point across than trying to make someone feel bad or whatever, it takes from the point. Here's to hoping that the changes and these r200 shops help get CWs back to being fun and the market being more active again! Good luck selling!
1
Aloysius
@Reaper Lol, that's true.

Yeah, I misunderstood and confused the two, at the time, when I went back and looked at my post to see if it had loaded, I thought, "no, that's not the same thing" but I didn't want to come back and make another post to negate it because it's taking forever to load the comment section and I was too tired.



1100 items is an awful lot and yeah that's going to take you some time, good luck! I only have 3 or 4 so it'll be a bit easier for me.
1
cain
You know... Maybe people would be a tad less insanely angry about this if we had some more concrete reasoning behind it. And didn't have to sift through hundreds of comments to find it.
8
Reaper
@Aloysius

At least it's stuff you have to do interjected with stuff you want to do xD



Oh, not the CW Shops, those aren't changing. The r200 thing is different. I was unclear on whether we could price r200 things in our regular shop for CSC or if he'd be adding a third category to shops (shop/gallery/r200 shop) but it's for CWs you don't want anymore that we've been trying to sell via trades/forums. Unless you meant Disasters has her unwanted/selling cws in a shop too in which case please ignore that rambling mess of an explanation attempt haha.



I've got roughly 1100 items in a gallery that I link to on my CW Selling thread in the r200 Advertising forum. I just want to convert it to a shop and price them out for what I want and have it already searchable so people don't have to magically check my forum if they want something. Also it saves everyone time because sometimes I just cannot get on here for a day or two beyond brief checks on my phone to do dailies (which reminds me I still need to smelt, bless that new higher option).
0
Aloysius
@Reaper.

I've been up as well, I've got five days off and I'm trying to read a book, watch tv, clean house, play skyrim and play around on the internet all at the same time, I haven't been getting to bed until 1am then it's another couple of hours before I actually get to sleep because that's when the cats want to run across my head. Then it's up at 5am to start all over. Work is easier than this.

Yep, we're like that too, snarky and sarcastic. It's just easier in person, because of body language and inflection.

Yes, it will probably take you forever, like Disasters shop, she's got a billion things in there, I don't envy her.
1
Reaper
@Aloysius

I scrolled down and reread and it's missing some words and a sentence break -headdesk-

In my defense, I was literally awake and busy for 21 hours yesterday haha.



Ah yeah, I think we got stuck in a loop of replying to replies on that one.



Sometimes I'm snarky when I don't necessarily mean to be, it's just kinda my default setting. So if it came across as snarky, it probably left my fingers that way but not in a mean way (does that make sense? everyone I know is snarky, we always are snarky to each other without it meaning anything). But yeah, I thought we stayed away from heated/hurtful which is the most important thing. I didn't intend anything to be rude or anything so I'm glad it didn't come across that way.



Also I really wish we could have the r200 shops pricing now. I have a whole shop of crap to do haha.
1
Aloysius
@Reaper Yeah, your first sentence sounded like that. It okay though, I know what you meant now.

I only said it once, the rest I was just responding back with whoever was posting trying to clarify my stance.



Yep, just agree to disagree, and no you don't have to apologise, I didn't take anything the wrong way, I hope you didn't either.

I'm a very laid back kinda person and it takes a lot to rile me, you'd have had to come to Phoenix, dance on my head and piss in my drink to get a raised eyebrow. I however do sometimes read peoples posts in a snarky "head voice" and I have to stop and ask myself "Did they really mean it like that? Or are they more like me, an Eeyore type? Alan Rickman is my snarky head voice, so maybe I read it like that on purpose.
1
Reaper
@Aloysius

I was agreeing with your excitement for the new things. I probably worded it wonky sorry. And I didn't fixate, you continued in each response to tell me how it could possibly work but we weren't willing to try, so I responded to the discussion given. We are going to have to agree to disagree, my opinion isn't solely based on a seller's standpoint, but you consider my buyer's stance tainted (despite the fact that I buy far more than I release) and refuse to acknowledge that I can look at it just as dispassionately and state that I wouldn't want to see a flat rate unlimited everything ever (for numerous reasons, not least of which is that all items aren't flat rate now, I don't want to pay 500 csc for an earring that would've slotted at 300 csc instead).



I don't think any differently about you either, it's just a discussion, not a treatise on who we are as folks ♥ I hope I've mostly stayed civil (I tried to make sure nothing I said could be misconstrued as hurtful or attacky, whether I succeeded or not is not really up to me, but if I did come across that way at any point I sincerely apologize) and I feel that you've been civil as well, and that's pretty much the only way to have any successful dialogue, even if we don't reach an agreement.
0
Aloysius
@Reaper That's exactly what I said. That I was excited to see the new changes that are going to be taking place. (we all know about the changes because we can all see staff posts)

I never said I was excited to make all wearables public and unlimited. I'm not sure why you're fixated on a suggestion that I made one time.



I understand you don't agree, that's okay, we don't all have to agree, it's okay to have different opinions than others. When someone doesn't agree with you that doesn't mean they don't understand what you're saying or how you feel.



I understand that you as a seller see it differently and that you may be passionate about the reasons, but I don't agree with you about that particular thing and I most likely never will. That's okay, it doesn't make me the enemy or some terrible person because I don't agree. (not saying that's what you said or think, just in general)



I don't think of you any differently now than I did one month, two years or 5 years ago. You're just another fellow Subetan in our corner of internet that's passionate about how you feel, same as me and all the rest of us here.



We're gonna have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
2
Saikune
Sounds like a bad decision but ok.
6
Reaper
@Aloysius

I'm much more excited for all the changes Keith has already started building that I posted than for a nebulous idea of maybe making everything forced public as a try to fix things (because I still disagree and believe it would actually kill the market for the most part).



Just a sidenote, because I'm tired as hell and cannot do all the long posts anymore, but it wasn't some blackmail threat I made. If I was forced to have everything released be public and unlimited and could no longer control whether I released something I had made, I really just would not submit anymore. I'd stop commissioning cws and I would stop releasing them. If they do it in the future, they do it, and that will be when I stop. I like being able to have items made for my OCs that I can keep to myself. I like being able to make gifts for friends. Or to have things made with CIs that will work for my pets' TCs. I know you think it's some big old nebulous threat and really I'd keep doing it anyhow, but it wasn't said as a warning to staff to do what I say or else (because if I had my way things would be a lot different with CW shops already because mine is a cluttered mess of shit organized into a 'retired permanently' category because I can't take those things out and never slot them again like I should be able to, but I digress). It was merely a statement of fact which was echoed by another and would likely be echoed by a lot of the folks who submit to the site. Staff can do whatever they want, with or without our input, but I'm sure if they actually took that suggestion and started asking submitters, they'd get an across the board answer of 'do what you want but that will make it so I do not submit anymore' because a lot of folks have personal items on here that they didn't ever release to anyone, not even friends half the time.
3
Lina
The pawn shop is overflowing with so many pretties, not because people dislike these items so much, but bc csc has become insanely expencive. I know you guys try to bring those prices down, but it is not workin with (i think) 150 csc a month when a single cw has an average price of 600 csc. I also think this might be a big part of why the cw market isnt as big as before. I wish you had tried to bring it more down with the free shop :(
13
Lvlybutterfly
This makes me sad, I love the pawn shop its easy, simple, no hassle, no fighting or waiting. Something pops up I like it buy it, mine simple no waiting or dealing. I dont have to join a ton of groups and get to avoid being spammed. I do not like to play the bid war on items. I do like to see all the different items I didnt know where even out there. Just some simple concerns from a quiet simple person.
8
Aloysius
@odduckOasis Lol, exactly! Lets just hope it doesn't take 5 years. I really want to believe that Keith and staff are really going to do right by us (and themselves) this time but after so many years, I'm wary. But I am Hopeful this time is different (not just about the pawn shop but about the site in general)! Hope for the best and prepare for the worst, as they say.
3
odduckOasis
@Christopher

But a lot of companies make decisions and changes w/out consulting the general consumer because much of the time they first talk to the board of trustees and their employees, getting their opinions on what they see and how they feel because they deal directly with the consumer. One of the things I've seen here is that the reason ppl are upset is because the pawn shop is an easy access way to get ahold of cws w/ little effort. I'm not disagreeing, I've done the same thing. But- it's like having a constant sale and hurts the original buyer and the seller and discourages them from desiring to even put out more items for fear of no one caring and therefore no one even bothering to want to slot on it. The money from the pawn shop goes directly back to the site, not the original creator of the item. I see the pawnshop as a constant sale of items (1000 wigs 'R' us as it were) and the thing ppl liked is being able to readily get a hold of said items at a lower cost than the annoying cw market place... but then people complain that they don't buy also direct because it's too costly- the pawn is cheaper overall- but if a regular company only had consumers that only ever bought when there was a sale, they'd go out of business.

So this is a way to make it work to lower cost, but try to keep the bottom line for subeta and still bring more affordable cws for everyone so there won't be a need for the pawn that really only benefits one group- the buyer (I mean it benefits subeta a little too cuz they get the profits, but still).



I'm not saying it's not a great strategy, I'm not running the show- esp as I said in a very much earlier post- that it was surprising to see this happen after they just said they were clearing out the pawn shop of 6+ old items, now it's just going to close. It's strange and while I agree that there's no clear cut 'this is what we're doing to replace it' being laid out there- I don't find it surprising they aren't giving us a blueprint. No company does. At least, I've never seen it.



I know things have been promised to change like the cults being updated, but then weren't and were abandoned and done away with. Rather lame imo, but even after all the complaints, they still went away. Eve the wardrobe update wasn't something we all knew about until a lot of testing was done. I simply don't think as heads of the company they are entitled to share every little bit of planning with us as a consumer. While we can say 'well then I'll take my business elsewhere!' the ultimatum is worth the risk to ignore when you're thinking of the whole group of users that are actually signed up on subeta, which is more than come online daily, many of which could care less about cws too.



I know it's not a perfect plan, but, all plans have to start somewhere. *shrug*



@alyosius

Oh, I totally agree that we need diversity and things need to be diverse for people in order to thrive. But if there's one thing that's true about anything, you can't please everyone all the time- so you do what you think is best and well... hope for the best. If it turns out to be the stupidest idea ever... well, then fix it. lol.
0
Aloysius
@odduckOasis I understand. I do remember that whole thing, pretty clearly. It's like this every time something big is changed, people have concerns and some people get emotional about it. I understand and accept that it's part of our community. And I love our community, even the people I don't necessarily agree with and they think I'm a terrible bitch, even though I don't feel the same way about them.

It's how I feel and I'm not going to hide it and keep quite just because it might upset someone. Subeta and staff needs to know how we all feel about something not just one group. I think It makes us diverse and I wouldn't trade our little piece of the internet for any other site.



It usually calms down after a couple of days when people have had time to think about it, process it and get all the tension out.

I've seen Keith posting about a new layout (I think coming out) this year and I'm already imagining the whys and how could yous.

We'll get through it we always do.
1
Julie
Heated conversations here. Many different views. I'm sure Subeta staff are taking note of our concerns.
1
Peppermint
Whew lots of people getting really mad over pixels in here. Scary.
0
Christopher
@oddduckoasis



Quote:
You know one thing I don't like seeing is how many people are making threats. They are saying that they won't or protentially won't be spending money on the site over this one thing. It's been stated that there are other options in the works, it's just not things that are currently available to be launched. In order to build something new, you have to tear down the old. The other thing I think people are not seeing or realizing, a lot of the cws in the pawn shops, are not that old. Not in comparison anyways. I have bought from the pawn shop myself, I'm like 'oh hey, there's that, cool *grab*' but I do realize that it was put in there at a loss to the person that initially bought it and the seller that tried to get it on site in the first place. The only one that benefited from the purchase, was me. In fact, I probably even saved 100 csc since the original release was probably 700.


They're closing a feature while there's no indication of a backup feature in place, and basically telling the people who are annoyed by that "oh well there'll be one in the future", as if that actually changes things (which, btw, was what was happening with cults and instead they just scrapped cults altogether). And additionally, CWs tend to depreciate in value because there's SO MANY of them. Not everybody needs one specific pink sparkly wig when there are 4 others that were released today.

Quote:
The reason I say I find it sad, is because it's essentially a threat. It's saying to staff you hate their descision (like when has that ever not been the case when something is removed or changed?) and that you will no longer support the site. If the site doens't get support, then it won't be able to make changes for the future. I don't think the cw market was ever implemented in order to keep the site afloat- but it brought more money in at a surprising rate, so that's why it's always changing and they're trying to find ways to benefit everyone. Taking away the pawn shop is only once step. THe thing I find ironic, is many ppl posting I don't remember seeing buy at the actual cw market (granted I don't stalk every thread), so the pawn shop was just easier for them to get a cw now and again- but unless you were buying a new item (mostly wigs, lets be honest) from there every day, spending upwards of 1-200$ a week to get said cws, you weren't doing much for the economy of the market place at all.


To paraphrase Keith in the news comments for the January MC "Subeta is a business". Which means that if customers aren't happy with the way the business is run, they can choose to no longer purchase from the business. Sometimes people need to actually let a business know that what they're doing isn't appreciated, and the best way to do that is to a) state what they want changed and b) inform the company that they will lose this person's proceeds if they don't.

Right now, the pawn shop is the easiest way, bar none, to view CWs that are literally currently accessible. Getting pinged to a CW board 20 times a day to try and grab a slot for a limited batch CW isn't feasible for a lot of people, but browsing the pawn shop is.

Quote:
I just think it's short sighted to assume that this means there won't be something put in place that will lower the cost of cws for many a hopeful general buyer. It takes time, just have to be patient. Plus, you forget just how incredibly generous many a cw seller is. They /want/ to sell their items for lower than they cost- but in order to be able to actually keep making items, they have to sell them higher in order to make sure it's affordable for all involved. Essentially saying "Do it for the love of making cws" is telling the sellers to spend their own money to get an item on site just to benefit you, not them (even if you imply they should do it for them, many ppl still seem to be upset that they don't get to be apart of it and so are also desiring to be benefited when they put in no effort themselves to make said cw happen).


Given the history of features being talked about and then not done or not implemented in a timely manner (hi cults, wardrobe revamps, etc) this isn't short sighted or baseless. Removing the feature that currently fills that function without there actually being something to replace it (which currently, is just "ideas") is not okay.

[quote]Also, I think the cw sellers forum is not a public forum for the same reason the minimod forum isn't public, If you're not involved in selling cws, why should you have input in how they are sold? If you are a buyer, feel free to suggest ways in which you think buying can be beneficial, but you have to keep in mind, the suggestions effects the seller, as they are the one providing it to you in the first place.[quote]

The issue is this change affects every user, especially users who buy CWs! Hiding it away in a forum that are most affected by it can't even view is super shady and it makes it really obvious that Subeta only cares about the opinions of the CW makers in regards to this, because they didn't even think to consult the average user about it before coming up with the "solution"/
10
odduckOasis
Actually, I probably have seen nothing... I know nothing at all. Just ignore me... I'm sure it's easy to do. =P lol!
0
odduckOasis
@Aloysius

True, I have seen artists making threats too, which makes me scratch my head since I'm not sure I understand that. See, a couple years ago, something was changed and implemented... I think CS shops? Or... something I don't even remember now- but I got super upset over whatever it was at the time, got angry and went on 'strike'. I wasn't the only one, but I was a small minority of artists/sellers that did and several people complained about my behavior and how I was behaving being immature and elitist (as tho I was the only one that mattered) and only in retrospect do I agree with them. I was being stupid and short-sighted and I didn't stop to think of the future and I think that's what a lot of the complainers are doing now, both buyers and sellers & artists- just jumping the gun and not stopping to wait and be calm and see what happens.



In the end, like you said, it's really not the end of the world, only for those that take it like that. xD; BUT I think we'll all recover and perhaps next year we'll look back and realize just how silly we were all being. lol.
2
Aloysius
@odduckOasis As I said before I agree with nearly everything your saying! We just need to wait and see!

The threats aren't only from the buyers though, there are artists/comms threating to stop making cws as well.



We disagree on the forum part but thats such a small thing anyway, we all know about it anyway through friends or whatever.
1
Aloysius
@Reaper Yes, I was discussing this with Beren (how she released something for friends of hers for Christmas, now she feels bad because others would like to have one, but it was limited just for them) but I think she made the right decision for herself there.

I'm completely open and willing to accept other peoples ideas and hear there reasons, as long as they stay civil.



I'm not really sure everything being available would flood the market, first, if no one wants it now or it was hard to slot on then your not going to get a bunch of people buying it then pawing it when its available in the shop either, 2, people only have so much csc it's not like the site would suddenly be flooded with cws that no one wanted anymore, it would take time.



That being said over time I could see that it could have a negative effect, that's why I said that they would be retired for 3 years, thats plenty time for an item to pick up value, get deleted or become scarce (people leaving the site and leaving them on accounts).

We'll never know how it would work out because no one is willing to try it, or maybe they would if everything else fails. Subeta takes a long time to do anything so if it did it be 20 years in could be 20 years in the future.



I don't know, I'm kinda excited about how this is all going to pan out. I also think people are forgetting that the pawn shop is staying open to sell and will be reopened during special events. It's not completely closing. I'm willing to give it a go and see what happens. It may work out better for all involved only time will tell!
2
Reaper
@odduckOasis

Thank you! I've been trying to make those points and I feel like it's not being understood. Right now the only people the pawn helped were buyers. It hurt the market, it hurt sellers, and really it hurt a lot of buyers too because they couldn't get bven half of what they paid for something most times.



I forgot to mention in my re-listing of the things that are being worked on to be implemented that Keith is putting in place smaller initial batch requirements (6 instead of 10) and also discussing how to lower submission coats while not making it so the site loses out (because they do have to pay for the person who reviews the items). Lower submission coats means lower prices all around which will helpfully also boost the market back up.
0
odduckOasis
@Pika

*climbs off soap box and goes back to sleeping off sickness* don't mind me >>



(side note: I would love a comment box at the TOP of the page too... scrolling to the bottom is a pain esp when there's no pages like forums lol)
2
Pika
Preach, @odduckOasis , preach. :clap:
0
Reaper
@Aloysius

Putting my personal feelings aside, I think, based on what I know, that it would be detrimental to the site to force all items to be public and unlimited.



I know quite a lot of people who make items solely for themselves. They never slot, never sell a copy. The items are related to OCs, tributes to loved ones, etc. These people more than likely (because I can't speak for folks, but I can guess based on the fact that they keep their items to themselves) will not submit if they cannot keep the items private. That is lost revenue for the site. If they are not artists themselves, that is lost revenue for whoever they typically commission. In turn, because of lost income, you can infer that said artist will have less money to potentially spend here, which is more potential lost revenue for the site. And he's, there are a lot more releasers than those who keep to themselves entirely, but if you polled the people who are releasing, the likelihood of finding people who feel the way I feel is pretty high. So the likelihood (without feelings, which help drive our behavior and help us make decisions) of this negatively impacting the site on a grander sale is much higher than you seem to be willing to acknowledge.



If you want to continue to nitpick my word choices that's fine, but basic economics can tell you that flooding a market with items, including ones that may have had little to no interest to start, hurts the economy. Especially when one entity comepletely controls the price.
2
odduckOasis
You know one thing I don't like seeing is how many people are making threats. They are saying that they won't or protentially won't be spending money on the site over this one thing. It's been stated that there are other options in the works, it's just not things that are currently available to be launched. In order to build something new, you have to tear down the old. The other thing I think people are not seeing or realizing, a lot of the cws in the pawn shops, are not that old. Not in comparison anyways. I have bought from the pawn shop myself, I'm like 'oh hey, there's that, cool *grab*' but I do realize that it was put in there at a loss to the person that initially bought it and the seller that tried to get it on site in the first place. The only one that benefited from the purchase, was me. In fact, I probably even saved 100 csc since the original release was probably 700.

The reason I say I find it sad, is because it's essentially a threat. It's saying to staff you hate their descision (like when has that ever not been the case when something is removed or changed?) and that you will no longer support the site. If the site doens't get support, then it won't be able to make changes for the future. I don't think the cw market was ever implemented in order to keep the site afloat- but it brought more money in at a surprising rate, so that's why it's always changing and they're trying to find ways to benefit everyone. Taking away the pawn shop is only once step. THe thing I find ironic, is many ppl posting I don't remember seeing buy at the actual cw market (granted I don't stalk every thread), so the pawn shop was just easier for them to get a cw now and again- but unless you were buying a new item (mostly wigs, lets be honest) from there every day, spending upwards of 1-200$ a week to get said cws, you weren't doing much for the economy of the market place at all.



I just think it's short sighted to assume that this means there won't be something put in place that will lower the cost of cws for many a hopeful general buyer. It takes time, just have to be patient. Plus, you forget just how incredibly generous many a cw seller is. They /want/ to sell their items for lower than they cost- but in order to be able to actually keep making items, they have to sell them higher in order to make sure it's affordable for all involved. Essentially saying "Do it for the love of making cws" is telling the sellers to spend their own money to get an item on site just to benefit you, not them (even if you imply they should do it for them, many ppl still seem to be upset that they don't get to be apart of it and so are also desiring to be benefited when they put in no effort themselves to make said cw happen).



Also, I think the cw sellers forum is not a public forum for the same reason the minimod forum isn't public, If you're not involved in selling cws, why should you have input in how they are sold? If you are a buyer, feel free to suggest ways in which you think buying can be beneficial, but you have to keep in mind, the suggestions effects the seller, as they are the one providing it to you in the first place.



PHEW- I need to stop being so long-winded. lol.
2
Aloysius
@Reaper Lol, We get it believe me we get it, NO ONE except the most clueless person thinks that cw's are lucrative. But you keep repeating the same thing where you think everyone is saying that cws are lucrative. We're not. I even put it in my post that it was "lucrative" in others than csc/money ways.



The ability to price in user shops is very exciting, I am definitely on board with that. Don't know much about the directory yet. But it's the shop idea has been my favourite so far, I think for a lot of us.



Actually I'm not insisting on anything, it was a suggestion, I can actually put my own feelings aside with things like this (the fact that personally I would like the site to control everything) has no bearing on the rest of my opinion, because I'm able to set that aside and say

"Yeah, that's what I would like, but for the betterment of the site and all its people I could go along with this thing instead. That's what makes it different. It was a suggestion not some kind of written in stone, I'll only be happy if they do it my way thing.
4
movielover
I am very disappointed by this. I don't understand why anyone would complain about it, it gives everyone the hope of obtaining cws that are no longer available. it does not in any way effect the sale of the new cws. I certainly hope this is not just catering to a few site complainers...
7
Reaper
@Aloysius

Quote:


And last, being a buyer and seller though makes you tainted, in a good and a bad way. Good because you can see both sides and give knowledgeable ideas (I've seen you do this, in the comments section, remember when they first released the User Custom Shops? God, that was crazy. You were there helping people understand how they worked and trying to waylay peoples fears about it.)

Bad because your more inclined to do what's in the seller part of yous best interest because it can potentially be more lucrative and not just in a csc way either.




Okay but see, you keep repeating the same thing that I and others have explained as a misconception. There's no "more lucrative" because it isn't, in any way, lucrative now.



I'm not a corrupt politicians who is cackling from behind my desk about how everyone will be forced to buy direct if they want something. There is still a second hand market. People will still discount. People will still do some unlimited batches, cw shops are still a thing.



A directory is being worked on.



The ability to price r200 items in CSC in user shops is being worked on.



Easier access and databases are being worked on.



The pawn was detrimental. Controlling release 100% from Staff's end means we spend money to give them what basically amounts to unrelated boutique designs. That is not and never was the point of customs. That would be detrimental. There are actually threads already up in feedback and in suggestions & ideas where people can publicly spitball ideas that would help everyone, not just one side or the other (because your suggestion alienates the people who put the items on site whether you want to believe it or not - so your perspective is pretty tainted too when releasers are telling you that it would not work for them and you continue to insist the idea would be better regardless of the thoughts/feelings of the people it would impact).
1
Navem
Why in the hell are you closing that part of the pawn shop? Its the ONLY way I purchase CW's anymore. I spend my money on CSC and then purchase from the pawn shop. This will definitely put a huge dent in the amount of money I spend on this site in the future.
6
Aloysius
@Reaper I think it will alienate buyers and drive them not to put money on the site. ie, I see a lot of releasers

concerned and asking why their batches aren't filling. Do you think they're going to fill more now?

With some releasers putting the blame on buyers. That's going to alienate people.



Who's this going to hurt? The buyers? No. I don't think they care, just more money for them to put elsewhere on some other site.

Is it going to hurt the sellers? No. Because they'll just release to their friends.



Is it going to hurt Subeta? Yes. It is. Because the buyers aren't putting money on the site and the sellers are only releasing to friends.

The whole thing gets worse than it is now. I think that Subeta is struggling a bit and could use a robust cw market. That isn't going to happen

if you have a us vs them approach. I'm seeing a lot of this.

Personally I see myself as in between, because while it annoys me a little that I won't be able to go in and browse around

and find something neat in the pawn shop, meh, it isn't really that big of a deal to be honest. I'll find other places to spend my money.

Or I'll hoard it and spend it when it opens up during special releases. ( I think some people skipped over that part)







It also states that once an item is on Subeta it belongs to them. Yes, they let the releaser do what they want with it, why wouldn't they?

They have to keep people happy and releasing items.

But they don't have to. They could just can the whole thing tomorrow

and delete all the cws on the site, or officially make them official subeta items and release them in the shops. They won't though as long as they're making some money, but they could be making more, lots more. If they let the artists alter the base whatever way they want (without being perverse) , eyes, nose whatever I think they'd make A LOT more money.



I think it was a great idea to begin with, a few cws here and there for friends and maybe a little for everyone else if someone was feeling generous.

But it's gone beyond that now to where people are leaving the site and just giving up making cws because there is just too much drama going on.

The site is losing money because of it.



I'm not really asking in the news comments just casually talking to and having friendly discussion with people what might work, what might not work. It probably is better to

hash it out in a dedicated thread. There would be more people to bounce ideas off of, but I was here and initially talking about the pawn shop, it's kinda morphed into

a discussion about cw's in general.



I do think the cw discussion threads should be open to everyone, this affects everyone so we should all be talking about how best to implement new changes.



And last, being a buyer and seller though makes you tainted, in a good and a bad way. Good because you can see both sides and give knowledgeable ideas (I've seen you do this, in the comments section, remember when they first released the User Custom Shops? God, that was crazy. You were there helping people understand how they worked and trying to waylay peoples fears about it.)

Bad because your more inclined to do what's in the seller part of yous best interest because it can potentially be more lucrative and not just in a csc way either.



I'll say it again, in the end whatever works for everyone is fine. It is what it is. I want Subeta to be a lucrative business, more money more cool things added. If they got rid of the cw part tomorrow I wouldn't mind. But I hope they don't because I'm excited to see where it can go given the opportunity.
3
Reaper
Also, several people keep saying this so I'm going to address it.



The perception from buyers that releasers are making money is inaccurate. It is rare for us to make money on any release.



What we get back (what you all keep calling making money and profits) is a small fraction, typically, of what we put out to get an item made and on-site. I actually take a lot of offense to this idea that we are in the wrong over this, and despite a lot of releasers explaining that we do not make money, this wording and idea keeps getting perpetuated. You say "well the perception is..." and so we say, actually that's not true, here's why, and instead of using that to correct the perception and assumption, you continue to say it. And you toss in that we shouldn't expect to get back anything and why do we create if we don't want to make the item for ourselves.



Y'all can't have it both ways. Either we are making things we love at a loss (with any sales or slots merely mitigating some of the cost) or we're greedy monsters releasing to get rich (in site currency). I mean, the first is true, but it seems like the truth doesn't fit with the narrative y'all want to create here.



(this is not directed to any individual person, but at all of the numerous comments made on this thread)
3
Reaper
@Aloysius

Quote:


I didn't ask you if you agreed, I asked you what you thought.



I saw that item in the pawn shop once and almost bought it. I would have slotted on it if it was public because its neat. This isn't just about privates though, it's about all cws onsite.



Why should you get to dictate what happens to your items once they go on site? They're no longer yours they belong to Subeta you're only paying for the privilege to get them on the site not so that you can then have complete and total control of them forever and ever.



And here in lies the problem, when artists/comms threaten to stop releasing items they're hurting themselves.

You're essentially blackmailing Keith, You're saying "if you don't do it this way we'll stop releasing things and you'll lose money"




I think that it will alienate releasers and drive us from the site. Better wording for you? Because I know it will drive me away. I'm super glad you think it's blackmail.that I expect the site to follow the agreement they set forth in the contract I agree to when I submit my item, as clearly spelled out on the submission page (I'm going to bold the pertinent part for you):



Quote:
Subeta's Custom Clothing feature allows you to be in control of what your avatar wears from head to toe! For a modest price, you can submit your original art for staff approval to be added as an item on Subeta! These items will have a unique Custom Clothing rarity, and you will be given ten pieces of your new clothing, which you may keep for yourself, give to friends or sell to fellow members of Subeta. It's up to you!




You can see the agreement made between the site and the customers (visible to anyone who visits the page) clear as day right on the Custom Clothing page.



So, since that is the agreement we all operate under, what gives them the right to dictate what we do with the items?



As for suggestions, there are a lot of things being implemented based on suggestions from the community, I listed them out in another post because they happen to be on a thread for people who've submitted an item already (still not sure why it's restricted, not up to me, up to staff). It's also possible to make a thread in the suggestions forum or the feedback forum. Asking in news isn't likely to get you enough responses to start forming a concensus on anything.



Also, your note that there are 30 releasers and 2k buyers, while being strange numbers to pull out of a hat to begin with, seems to negate the fact that most releasers are also buyers. We buy things too. I am just as much of a consumer as I am releaser/seller - more so probably. So I am coming at it from both perspectives. I don't want the site to tell someone they have to sell to me because it's more fair and then my feelings don't get hurt. It's their item, if they don't want me to have it for whatever reason, then I can act like an adult and accept that.
3
Aloysius
@Beren See that's where it gets murky. I would still love to see everything unlimited and in the cash shop. But I also see where you're coming from, that's why I wanted to discuss and brainstorm options with people.

I kinda regret getting involved in cws sometimes because of the drama but I also would never take any of it back because there are some seriously great people out there that I've had the pleasure to interact with, both buyers and sellers.
4
Beren
Quote:
Personally, I think that Subeta needs to take an official stand on privates and ban them completely. They've been the cause of a lot of good artists (and buyers) leaving the site or giving up completely, everything should be submitted as unlimited and immediately placed in cs shops for 500 csc (this should also be retroactive).




@Alyosius

I am not into CWs for a long time (less then a year - actually)

But that would definetly be something I do not wish for.



I felt really bad around last lumi - but I had comissioned a special CW just for friends - to gift to them.

I did not slot any places - meaning I paid the artist (which did an amazing job)

and both of the batches myself.

I put that CW under the trees of people who I've come to know/like a lot during the last year here at subeta.

People who have been a great help / were nice and funny to talk with.

I would not call the CW private. I call it "special" and if anybody wants to trade it away - I am fine with that.



BUT I would not want it to be unlimited.

I wanted something special - and I got that.



I actually felt bad as people satrted asking about the item and I had to twll them it's supposed to be a gift for friends.

I feel bad if I see it sit on a WL.

I had a second when I considered maybe doing a recolor - but then....

No...

It would not feel right.



As said - I am not calling it private.

And I would not be offended if anyone would not like it and sell/trade their copy.



But I am glad I had the choice of just getting the 20 copies

and not a single one more.





As a buyer - yes I've been on the missing out end, also.

It's a "oh well anothe rone for my WL" feeling.

But this is still a game.

And I try very hard not to be to bothered by things on here -

since this is a place I ant to go and forget about RL problems



*evil grin*
1
Aloysius
@odduckOasis Yes! Everything you just said, is how I feel. No one knows how this is going to work. It might work for the better, it might be scrapped totally and my own lovely idea may get implemented (haha) we just don't know. I'm more than willing to give it a go. But if it doesn't work out I hope that something else will be done, not just leave it to fester like this whole mess that got us here.



And yes, there are a few people I refuse to buy things from. And I never will again short of them apologising and actually meaning it, two of those artists are long gone, frozen or just left. The other one (I think) is still here but doesn't release anymore to my knowledge and nothing they said would ever let me forgive them. They said and did the nastiest stuff not just to buyers but to other artitsts/comms.

I can tell you that it has to be something pretty bad, because I'm a pretty laid back, meh, kinda person.
2
Aloysius
@Disasters Just don't let it get to you, it was sounding like it was for a minute. People can and will say crap on the internet because they don't think it affects people, but it can and it does. Lol, I'm not sure it's a good place to go to escape real life disasters, might just make it worse?



And of course, as I said below, I've seen people get nasty when slotting on things before. I kinda do one of those wide-eyed- wandering eye, crazy looks when someones doing something embarrassing and you don't know how to react looks. Back away slowly kinda thing.
2
odduckOasis
Wow, this has gotten HUGE!



@Aloysius

I love you right not. xD I hate hate hate going onto any site that just has a bunch of people being rude, complaining and overall being nasty rude people just for the sake of complaining. It's stupid overall and a definite waste of time. Every time I feel like going to see what ppl are complaining about, I'm like 'nope, stupid idea'. While I totally get your reasons behind your idea, I think the thing that ppl are focusing on is the fact that you stated it would be 'forced' and as humans, we don't like anyhthing to be forced upon us, no matter if in the end, it's for the best. Even as children, we hate control, we test our limits and push boundaries, and this never goes away as adults. When faced with a suggestion of someone saying "the control will be taken from you" instead of seeing it as saying 'so you don't have to worry as much' they see it as a threat and suddenly, people will cling to what they feel is their right, which in the end it is. Your intention is good, so don't fret, but if something like that were to be instituted, it would def need a lot of refining. I think for now, it's just one step at a time, see where this goes, what comes next and we can all go from there. =)



-

I've often worried that my past mistakes have created a blockage for people desiring to buy from me. I've done things, I've said things in the past that have been 'in the moment' and have been stupid. I didn't think, I just reacted and after I feel idiotic afterwards for doing it. The internet is forever, I can't erase it, I can only fix it... but not everyone will accept. Or, I think I'm sounding courteous or just making a statement that someone finds highly offensive, when that wasn't my intent (tho truth be told, it's your own choice to be offended, I can't make you feel any way you do not wish to feel). But with that in mind, I think a lot of people in general can hold grudges and after awhile, you forget even why you are mad. If more people would let go of reasons they had to be mad in the first place, they wouldn't refuse to buy from someone that did something stupid 3 years ago. I for one, am sorry if anyone has ever felt offended of upset by what I've said, as it was never my intent to be rude or insulting and I know, people can change and can get better.



I think we all need to just- step back, take a breath and let things be. For the sake of sanity (as was stated before ^^) especially.
3
Disasters
@Aloysius



Haha I've had my fair share of people mad at me for my releases when they missed slots or didn't like it was private so I just ignore them. The thing is though if we make everything public and unlimited, the assholes win lol and that doesn't do good for anyone.



Haha yea the site is insane the only reason I check that site is cause a lot of times I'm either linked to it by friends, or its a way to escape from the real life disasters going on especially right now. I do like defending my friends, and I do like to laugh when people put shit about me on there cause everyone assumes they know everything about anyone they put on there so it gives me a good laugh
1
Aloysius
@Disasters Eh, I didn't suggest everything being unlimited because people missed out on items. I'm suggesting it because there is so much drama related around cws that I figure it would be easier in the long run for everyone, no more artists/comms having to put up with nasty people and their shit fits, no more people losing slots because their afraid of posting on the forums, all in all happy people. The artists/comms make more money so they can afford to put what they want onsite, buyers being able to get the stuff they'd like. I think it's a great compromise. I'd love to hear other suggestions, especially from artists/comms who know the system from the other side. But something that isn't all about sellers but something that benefits both sellers and buyers.



I'm all open and more than willing to hear lots of ideas, for real!



Also, I'm assuming by the "other site" you mean the Subeta drama one? where people post complaints? Why do you even go there? You know that site is full to the brim of entitled assholes and people with grudges. Thatt place should be avoided at all costs, it isn't worth your sanity. I'll say the same to you that I said below, give the assholes the finger and embrace the rest. What more can you do?
5
Disasters
And your suggestion that EVERYTHING be made unlimited, and made retroactive IS saying you should be entitled to every release...
4
Disasters
@Aloysius



I clearly said your suggestion along with insults and nasty things from others on the news post, I didn't say YOU insulted anyone, I said your SUGGESTION that we shouldn't be able to control our releases was insulting.



I have had many interactions with you that have been pleasant, you are right, but after seeing your suggestion that we shouldn't have any control over our own releases I am hurt, and seeing my friends being attacked here and on that vile website has pushed me to the brink.



I'm sorry if you think I'm nasty and rude, but I am so disgusted at how many nasty posts there have been on this news post. Your suggestion is the only thing I have a problem with from you directly, but the other stuff I said still stands. No one should be able to tell any of us how to release our items, and no one, buyers, commissioners, or artists alike are entitled to every item that's been released. No they should NOT all be unlimited and given to everyone just because some people are mad they missed out.
2
Aloysius
@Disasters Excuse me? Where have I been ranting and complaining about not getting something I want? No where. You can go back and reread my posts here, I've been offering suggestions that might make things easier for all involved, trying to go back and forth with some artists/comms to see if we could come up with something. If they don't get implemented *shrugs* that's fine too. It's only a suggestion. I'm not really concerned either way. Do I like that the pawn shop is closing? No, I don't but I'm not making some huge deal about it either. It is what it is.

You however were a bit nasty in that post you just pinged me to and honestly I thought you were better than that, our interactions on site, there have been many, have always been pleasant.



If you thought I was being nasty or are typing this with some kind of anger you are wrong.
6
Galaxia
@Reaper



I don't mean you being friends with people just for the sake of CWs! More like...someone may know you want something and hold a slot for you, or be more likely to trade an item they still have some attachment to because you know them when they wouldn't otherwise be inclined to part with it just yet, or they click on your topics or check your WL more often because they know you. Not taking advantage of people or being two-faced, but rather being part of a community and getting the respect and leeway thereof.
2
Disasters
@Aloysius



Honestly if staff started dictating what happened with items I paid for and put on site, I agree with @Reaper I'd never spend another cent on subeta and never release another item.



Yes or sucks to miss an item, I've missed tons I would've liked to own, but I'm not entitled to own any of them, like you and many others seem to think buyers should be.



Yes there are releasers who have been less than courteous, same with artists but buyers are just as nasty at times so trying to punish commissioners/artists because of a few bad apples and making us have NO control over items we release is honestly the most ignorant idea I've heard.



Just because people can't afford to buy CWs/miss slots/can't get privates doesn't mean subeta should jump in and make those items available for everyone, that's ridiculous.



I've made my fair share of private items for my friends for my own reasons. I don't have to offer items publicly, but I try to whenever I can to be fair to everyone however reading your suggestions and many others rants on here really makes me wonder why any of us commissioners should offer anything publicly after the non stop insults from so many of you over the pawn shop closing.



We aren't getting rich from CWs, and we choose to spend our money on Subeta. Who are any of you to decide how the money we spend commissioning items should be used, or how our items we commissioned should be released?



If you don't wanna spend money releasing items or buying CWs from users shops that is your choice, no one is forcing you. How I spend my money and release my items is my choice and you have no right at all to tell me how to release my items or even suggest that subeta should take over for all of us commissioners and force us to make everything unlimited so you buyers can get everything you want.



Life isn't always fair, you can't always get what you want and honestly? After seeing your sugggestion and many of the insults in this news post, I'm disgusted and lowt respect for many people I once thought were nice, because the vitriol and insults the releasers, commissioners and artists have been subjected to because of a choice Keith made to try and better the CW community.



Every single artist who is active right now has tried to help new artists get into the scene. Cathii alone has done so much to encourage the community, and make things easier for new artists. So many other artists are always doing sales to try and make things more affordable everyone. Violin and other artists have even done free commission giveaways to get things to people who can't afford many commissions.
7
Aloysius
@Reaper I didn't ask you if you agreed, I asked you what you thought.



I saw that item in the pawn shop once and almost bought it. I would have slotted on it if it was public because its neat. This isn't just about privates though, it's about all cws onsite.



Why should you get to dictate what happens to your items once they go on site? They're no longer yours they belong to Subeta you're only paying for the privilege to get them on the site not so that you can then have complete and total control of them forever and ever.



And here in lies the problem, when artists/comms threaten to stop releasing items they're hurting themselves.

You're essentially blackmailing Keith, You're saying "if you don't do it this way we'll stop releasing things and you'll lose money" and then you've got the buyers on the other side saying "if you don't do what we want then we'll stop buying and you'll lose money" so which one is going to lose out in the end the 30 or so releasers or the 2000 buyers? Both. Both are going to lose out.



That's why there should be compromises, to keep everyone happy.
8
Reaper
@Aloysius

I mean, how many people want a copy of my
?



The answer is, only people who got the joke and were offered a copy to begin with (I have a spare that someone ended up not being able to use). It's an item I made for my friends because of an inside joke.



The private OC makeup I made was more popular, so I commissioned a slightly altered version (released in all the same colors) that was public and made it unlimited. Why should you also get the ones made for me? Is it not enough to offer almost all my things publicly?



And as a buyer, I fully understand when someone tells me "this was for friends" or "this was restricted for x reason". I'm like...Okay cool, thanks for letting me know! I'm polite when I ask and put out there that I understand if an item isn't being publicly released when I ask about an item and I have never received a rude response from a releaser yet.
2
Reaper
@Aloysius

I'm never going to agree to the site dictating control over items I pay to have made, and I doubt anyone else would either. At that point they may as well go directly to artists and hire them as site staff.



My personal privates don't affect anyone, I should be allowed to make things for myself and my friends if I want. Anyone on the site has the same capabilities. The drama surrounding privates was mostly releasers being harassed by people who didn't get them, which led them to stop releasing. So the punishment for that should be to force them to never be allowed to make a gift?



The entire concept of CWS was to make and release things for yourself and your friends. They didn't expect or intend for it to create a new market, but everyone got excited for custom wearables and decided to share it out.
3
Aloysius
@_Cresenta_ Likewise! You're most welcome and thank you too!

This does affect me because I buy a lot from the pawn shop but I am trying to put any emotions I have aside and see both sides. Who knows hows it's going to work out. I don't like it now but maybe this will lead to something else even better. As long as us buyers are being thought of and not just "oh they'll just deal with it, were only interested in what artist/comms want" kind of thing.
0
Reaper
@Galaxia

I think that perception is really skewed. I've been here for awhile so I have older things I slotted on, sure. I've also spent a lot trying to buy thinga I wanted. I don't trade privates unless the releaser is long gone with no recourse for me to sell back to them, and then I try to trade rather than sell at a markup. But also, I have a list of things I just cannot get, no matter how much I hunt. Not even necessarily privates, but public things with multiple batches. I have just as much trouble finding the things I want as anyone else. I've had to pass on getting a lot of them because I can't afford what someone wants or don't have the items they're seeking in trade, just like everyone else.



Like, I'm really not big in the scene or market, y'all just see me a lot because I slot on a lot of things. And when I sell from my collection, it's to gather the funds to direct all the crap I can't get slotted to a full batch.



And my friendships with folks really do not hinge on cws. I miss slots on stuff released by friends all the time, especially when it's single batch, because I don't expect or demand that our friendship be determined by whether or not they let me have their things (and I'm sure you didn't mean the comment to imply that my friendship got me access, I just want to clarify for anyone who thinks it does). I don't care if I can never slot on another thing release by friends, we're friends for reasons that have nothing to do with cws beyond the fact that we possibly met through them. A lot of my friends are folks I'd see around the board's who I talked to one day because we liked similar things, or who talked to me for the same reason. I really wish there wasn't this weird divide where people who don't release CWS assume that anyone who does isn't a buyer themselves and is some cw billionaire sitting on their mountaintop looking down at customers. There are bad apples in both groups, but there are also a lot of people who are part of both groups.
1
Tundra
@_Cresenta_ I think so, too. I mean if something is unlimited in a shop, why not? do we really need 10 copies in the pawn shop? That and I'd like to delete some extras of my own items. I mean if it was someone else's limited release, I'd ask first? but I still think it'd be a nice option to have ^o^
1
Aloysius
@Reaper Maybe let the artists/comms have a limited amount of control (basically the 6 month-3 year thing I mentioned below) but maybe make it so it isn't retroactive for active members of the site, so you would know that from now on there would no longer be any privates but you'd get to keep the ones private that have already been put on the site and they wouldn't go into the shop, everything else would. Except artists/comms that are frozen or that have had their accounts cleared those items (including any old privates) would be placed in an official cw shop that was run by Subeta?

What do you think?

I'm trying to throw out a compromise. It can't be just what the artists/comms want because then there would be no buyers and likewise it can't just be what buyers want because then the artists/comms stop producing. There has to be something or everyone is going to lose.
3
Mouse
I'm really disappointed by this. :( I really hope it comes back for plenty of special events because I really enjoyed browsing the CWs in the Pawn Shop and getting a good deal on some.
2
_Cresenta_
@Aloysius



Just have to say, it's really nice to talk to someone in the news comments and have a civil conversation without name-calling. Thank you SO much! ;_; <3
3
Aloysius
@_Cresenta_ I understand completely, it sours us buyers too but the other way around! There is always going to be nasty people but you've just got to give them the finger and embrace the rest. So good for you and thank you for doing essentially just that! :heart:
2
Reaper
@Hamlet

I don't know if you've ventured into my shop ever, but I actually have released a large number of things directly without limit. Anytime I think something can be functionally useful. It's unrealistic, however, to assume that non artist releasers can pay for art and then pay to direct to shop every commission they have. And people containing that they couldn't get X items because they was one batch and mostly full by the time public groups were ping is what I was addressing. If I spend small fortunes getting things done and then people don't slot when I offer it, how am I wrong to just offer it to people who are my friends instead (with no restrictions). Why make it unlimited if people supposedly didn't want it in the first place?



@Doe

I get that you didn't mean it to be personal, but it feels personal when people are saying that we're being greedy and making money. I know you've said we're not making big bucks but it comes off that way, except that we aren't actually making any money. When you put out $70 and get back $5, that isn't making money. And again, I don't care if I don't make it back, because it isn't about that, but it's frustrating and hurtful to have people act like the fact that I might get back $5-10 out of every $50+ that I spend makes me greedy. I understand you don't think that, but the perception and the way people act because of it is pretty shitty.



And limiting batches and releasing first to friends I guess can be seen as punishment except it's not. It's more of a, 'whats the point in trying to release more than one batch when people aren't slotting anyhow?' and then we get bitched at by people who are mad they missed an item. It's pretty much a lose/lose. Set something as two batches? Can't fill one. Set something as one batch? Get yelled at and criticized for not making it more so everyone can have a copy. I mean...Where's the middle ground here?



Also I'm sorry if I implied you were doing the things, I meant you in the general sense but it was late and I didn't better clarify.



Happy to share the things that were on that board, I really hope they work better than the pawn did honestly. And also thank you for being civil in the discussion! It's nice and sadly refreshing to not have it devolve into insults and name-calling.



@Aloysius

The thing is, I'm a buyer too. I've experienced all of the things you've mentioned. I can tell you that the biggest decline in people making/releasing/buying CW's came after the CW Pawn started to devalue items that had sat there for awhile.



I've acknowledged that there are other factors that play into whether or not to slot on a given thing.



Also I wholeheartedly disagree with forcing everything direct to shop unlimited with one set price, and I'm sure the vast majority of people would as well. If you tell someone that they have to release this your way or no way, they're all going to leave. I paid for the art, it's up to me how to release it. I have items I created as gifts that I never sold (and have not restricted what they can do with), I don't want to be forced to put them into a shop. I'll never give this site another cent of my money for anything if I was forced to do so. And I know I wouldn't be the only one.



@pizza

I get where you're coming from on that, but you don't necessarily have a way to predict that, and as soon as you publicly say what limit is, you're bound to follow that. You can't say "this will be 1 batch" and then change it because more people want it than anticipated. Subeta will ring you for scamming. If they stated anywhere that other folks could see that this item and all of its recolors would be a single batch, whether you or I saw the post or not, they have to adhere to that.



And the trouble I've come across is that, if I say something will have batches determined by interest, I have more trouble filling slots. As soon as I switch to saying, okay interest was low, one batch, I get more people suddenly wanting it (not always and not for everything, but this happens with enough frequency that it's almost not worth it to make anything more than 1 batch, which is likely what led to a lot of folks deciding to only do single batch items - why bother aiming for more if it means you won't be able to fill a single batch with regularity).
1
_Cresenta_
@Aloysius



You're absolutely right and that's why I have not stopped releasing public items no matter how mad I've gotten. Because I don't want to punish everyone for 1 jerk but when you deal with that 1 jerk well, it sure sours your desire to release things for a while. ;_;
2
Aloysius
@_Cresenta_ I know! I see it on the boards sometimes if I'm slotting. There are people who are rude, we've all seen them. The ones that go apeshit if they miss a slot and the things that are said on the forum/board is astounding, it isn't hard to imagine what they would say in comments or smail without an audience.

But you can't lump everyone in the same group. You can't limit items just because a couple of people are jerks. There are CW Artists/sellers/comms that I refuse to buy from just because I saw them being rude to someone with no provocation or to myself. I stay away from them but that doesn't mean I just stop buying from all the others just because that one was a jerk. : )
3
_Cresenta_
@Tundra



An option to delete CWs for CSC would be really, really convenient imo.
0
Galaxia
@Reaper



But it's also easier for you and other CW makers who've been here a while and built up the collections and the friendships to trade for the things you want, or trade your private releases. So at least from the outside, it looks like you've got way more options (I am thinking @Doe's term of 'prommie' might be short for prominent). The rest of us are left way more out in the cold and, while I understand why people are doing the one-batch thing, it's this snowballing problem that hurts more than the people not slotting and trying to cheap you on your extras (which is absolutely repellent of them, by the way, who DOES that?)



I am pretty much considering leaving ping groups and not buying anything for the near future, because it's gotten that frustrating with two recent things right on top of each other and it just feels so hopeless. And the buy/sell forum is pretty much useless to me as an alternative, because I never get responses (even though someone else will try for the exact same item while my topic is still on the page, and get a response within a day).



That's why some people preferred the Pawn Shop; I know I'm not alone in these difficulties, in being awkward with people or too honest or harsh, or not having the best tracking on when something's being released, and it was amazing having an option that didn't remind me of things I couldn't get in tracking through previous items. Instead it's pages and pages of possibles, right there! A click away!



I am with you, releasing CWs is not about the profit. But buying them isn't about fun anymore, either. I really hope we get those r200 shops Keith mentioned.
3
_Cresenta_
@Aloysius



I can see your reasoning there and it makes sense. :) But as a releaser I have actually been attacked TWICE for my public items. Legit someone making fun of my release and that made me want to just do only friend releases because I can trust them not to say something like that. :( It sucks but toxic people are everywhere. I've seen releasers blacklist buyers A LOT for attacking them for PUBLIC items if they didn't get there in time to slot on them. As a releaser, I like to have some kind of limit on my items whether it's 1-3 batches because sadly when an item is unlimited, most people pass over it for limited items. I've seen this many times. :(
3
Aloysius
See now privates have never bothered me too much, I've never been attracted to them just for their status the way some people are. I don't think I have any privates, a couple "please, only sell to group members" things but even if I had privates I wouldn't know it because I get a lot of stuff from the pawn shop.



For me, the reason I want to do away with them is because, exactly what I said below, we've lost a lot of good artists and frequent buyers over them and it just isn't worth it to me. The cw market would be busier if half the really good people hadn't gone away or stopped buying because of the drama associated with them.
3
_Cresenta_
@Pinkpetalst



If that's directed at me, I'm ok with it. It's your money and you're free to spend it how you want. if you don't want to slot on my items, it's your choice and that's perfectly A-ok. ^_^ I release items I want onsite, so it may take me longer to do it without some people slotting but if I care enough, I'll pay to get onsite. When you dish out 1-10k to commish an item, you can managed another 5k to get it onsite if you want it bad enough.
3
Pinkpetals
Well see you can keep your privates and this just proves I will not slot on any more batches period! So please don't complain that you can't fill batches when you need us on your terms.
5
_Cresenta_
I'm probably going to get attacked for this but I'm not understanding all the salt towards private releases. Fact is, there will always be things that you can't have whether it's because it's "friends only" or it had 1-2 limited batches, or maybe even you were offline for a month for something irl and missed an item that had 5 BATCHES that all filled somehow. We're always going to have things we wished we could have but missed out on. I know -I- have privates on my WLs that I'll never own, but that's ok with me because I also know there are loads of beautiful cws available that I will get to own.



People sometimes want to release things just for their friends, for their birthdays or other special things that only their friends would get the significance of and I don't see the harm in that. Personally I have private items and I do my very best to balance my releases. So if I do a private, the next one is almost always public. Thing is, a person either draws the CW themselves or pays someone to have it done -- and that's expensive. So I don't understand why the person who pays for the item is judged so badly for wanting to only share it with a select few once in a while if they feel like it. It's like when you buy something from the store irl, are you obligated to share with everyone and if you don't you're "an elitist" or "a horrible person"??? Little unfair imo.



Just my two cents. -_-
4
pizza
Quote:
People want to know why things are getting released to friends only and having maybe 1-2 slots left when pinged for the public? The fact that otherwise we can't fill a batch. You want to know why Privates are bigger now than they ever were? Same reason.




tbh i don't really have an opinion on the pawn shop since the items i want will never end up there, lbh

but in regards to this

so many times, there have been items that i've been publicly pinged for, and literally like, 10+ people are asking for slots but the batch was already way past filled. so it's not all "can't fill a batch" because there are SO MANY highly desired items that are being kept at one batch for ?????? idk what reason (to up their value maybe, since that's really what it ends up doing)

yes, there are items that don't fill, but ffs there are definitely items people want, and the releasers know it, and they are still limited batches. like i have no issue limiting batch numbers if you are struggling to fill slots, but THERE ARE ITEMS WE CAN ALL THINK OF AND ARE LIKE "WHY WAS THAT ONLY ONE BATCH?????????" and no one can say "oh it wasn't filling"



that is all

just my two cents
5
Aloysius
@Reaper

Doe has stated exactly how I feel as a buyer. I could not have stated my concerns and feelings any better, thank you @Doe



Reaper, the thing is, you are looking at this from a sellers/creators perspective, you've explained to everyone exactly how you feel. Most of us completely understand that artists/comms don't make "big bucks". We all understand that and everything that goes with it, because you've all explained it a million times.



What we want you to do, is to understand how we feel as buyers and potential buyers. But instead of looking at our (the buyers) perspective and saying "Okay, yeah. I understand how you could feel that way" you're basically pointing your finger at us and accusing buyers of being the cause of this. Not exactly a great thing to do because it could turn off even more people to buying.



Please don't get stuck on the, "everyone wants it for 300 csc or they don't want to slot on this now, but is happy to buy it at full price later" thing. Maybe that's what it is for a handful of people. But maybe, just maybe there are other reasons.



I'll give you a few:



1: Someone likes the item but doesn't have the csc/money to slot on that item just then.

2. There is another item that may take priority over yours. (something gets approved but not released, a buyer holds on to their money in case that item is released instead.

3. An item that costs 4000 csc to get on site (meaning slots should be no more than 500-550 csc) are being slotted at 700 csc.

4. The item is ugly/not drawn well/shading is off.

5. Nitch markets (tv shows, celebrity,movie, anime stuff)

6. There's something too similar on site (officially) already. Or there is the likely hood of it becoming an official item.

7. The artist/comm releases mostly privates.

8. The artist/com treats their "public" buyers like shit. Is rude and doesn't reply to genuine/innocent questions.

a. Because they've dealt with a couple assholes, they think all buyers are like that.

9. People don't like posting on the forums.

10. A person has been blocked by the artist/comm.



I could go on, I'm sure there are others who could come up with more as well.

As I said before as a buyer, I'm not going to be paying 600-700 for an item if I don't think it's worth that much. I'm more than happy to pay that if I really like the item.

Items on Subeta lose their worth, this is true with cw's as well. I've paid 100 million for something before only for it to be worth less than 50,000 sP now. What is Subeta doing or going to do help me start making my money back from things like that? Nothing. And they never will. Cash is king and all that.





Personally, I think that Subeta needs to take an official stand on privates and ban them completely. They've been the cause of a lot of good artists (and buyers) leaving the site or giving up completely, everything should be submitted as unlimited and immediately placed in cs shops for 500 csc (this should also be retroactive). No more, no less. When someone buys an item, the site gets 250 and the artist/comm gets 250. (this is only fair as Subeta has already got their money from the submission process.) (actually the artist should get 300 and the site should get 200).

The cs owners could choose one of two options: to semi-retire items after 6 months and bring them back 6 months later or they could choose to retire after 1 year and then bring them back in three years. This would all be automatic the cs owners would only get two choices they would have no say and have no control after that. That way if they left the site or got frozen the items would still be available eventually. This would be enough time for someone to say I better get it now or I may not get for a long time if at all, also giving them time to get the csc up to buy the items.





Posting this, I know I can come off as assholish, but I want the Cw artists and releasers and sellers I've personally dealt with to know that I've had an overall happy experience and the vast VAST majority of them that I've had the pleasure of slotting with (you included Reaper) have been a lovely, easy and rewarding to deal with. There are bad apples in ever bunch artists and buyers alike.



This is only my opinion, there are tons more out there, from artists, to commissioners, to the staff, to the buyers that all have their own perspectives and experiences. We have to be open to all of them and come up with some thing that is going to benefit ALL of us, right now it seems this is only benefiting the sellers and the staff. Maybe thats why the buyers are feeling just a little bit bitter and left out. Maybe this will work out for us buyers too, only time will tell.



In the end, it is what it is.
8
Doe
@Reaper, we will just have to agree to disagree on some things (mostly, because writing up all this stuff takes a lot of time and I don't have the time nor energy for it, though I do thank you for discussing it with me). I've seen what I've seen and experienced what I've experienced and you've seen and experienced what you have. We've seen different sides and some of the same, but we are probably just not going to fully agree on everything, so no sense steadily arguing those points.



Again, I don't think you're greedy, I said that that is the air that artist and CW makers put out. Though many say they are not making profit, which I doubt they are making big bucks from it (Subeta is the one, mostly through CSC sales for people to buy CWs, making the money), it does seem to be a sore spot, which make others think that IS the main issue, so in turn, they think you (general you, not you, personally) are greedy. Again, I'm hoping this is fixed by Subeta lowering the price, so people won't refuse to slot for items. It's why I loved buying CWs; it supported artists and got some awesome new items on site. Shoot, CWs were the reason we finally got some new shoe styles on the site, so I will never say a bad thing about CWs overall. Haha. I've also never done the wait until something got to a low point in the pawn shop or ask someone to lower their prices. It just wasn't an issue when I was really into buying CWs. Obviously that has changed and, again, I think that is a result of the price going down in the pawn shop. Something that should have never been instituted because of what would eventually happen. Who would pay 500 CSC when they know something will possibly be 300 CSC in a few weeks? Subeta had to have seen that coming. That could easily be fixed, though, and keep the pawn shop open, but the new stores sound better and can, hopefully, make most happy. I've also never cried and whined over a CW price or not getting a discount ever, so I'm not the bunch you need to direct that to. I'll happy pay a reasonable price for a CW, but yeah, no one is going to pay what they don't think it's worth and I (they) don't. Otherwise, I'd have a lot more CWs than I do. However, I realize, for people who might have 500 CSC sitting around, that CWs are expensive compared to being able to buy multiple pieces out of the Boutique for the same price as a slot. Subeta needs to make prices more on par with similar things on the site. Plus, and this is just me here, how did the item get into the pawn shop in the first place? If it's not there, it can't even be bought at a cheaper price. This is something that should have been addressed by staff. They can't do much about art, but they can make guarantees with CWs, since it's basically buying the rights to a design and that design is the property of Agoge once it's been submitted and approved. You shouldn't be able to pawn something until you have presented it to the seller, a reasonable time frame passes where they could say if they wanted it back, willing to pay that person the slot price, or not (maybe two weeks), then if it was not wanted, the buyer could pawn it. A little more work, but it would have helped matters. The CW pawn shop just could have been handled so much better, in my opinion.



And artists and CW makers deciding to just make things private to combat people waiting to buy from the pawn shop or because they ask for discounts, doesn't help matters, either. In fact, it just pushes people to the pawn shop more. Yeah, it would annoy me, too, if people came and said, "give me an item for this price because it'll end up in the pawn shop and I can just get it later." I'd be like, "tough cookies, it's not in there now, might not ever get in there, so why would you even ask something stupid like that?", but that's just me. I also wouldn't think to ask someone that because it would be an obvious no. Punishing more for a few seems a bit misguided, though not my place to judge; you do what you think is right. If the private market is bigger, well, then you can't really blame others for just waiting or giving up and not buying anything. Just don't sell to those dumb enough to want people to give a discount when they could have slotted. Of course, I'm from when you got slotted or you missed out, plain and simple, because there was no CW pawn shop then. If you, somehow, found someone selling it, you were lucky! So, again, I don't care if the pawn shop is gone, but you really can't blame users for that. Subeta instituted what happens in the pawn shop and made things get devalued. I just hate that people are calling others entitled when they were just going along with the system the site set in place and no one is ever happy when things get taken away, so the fallout was inevitable.



And no worries about the Prommie thing. Either you were not around for that whole drama or you stayed away from it. Believe me, it was a huge mess. Elite to the extreme and the staff fully went along with it for a long time. Not Subeta's best time.



And again, I didn't say artist or CW makers are making big bucks. However, artists can make a selling board, I did not mean for CWs to clarify, to sell their art and get cash/CSC/sP from that. They have an ability to make big bucks, so people who feel like they don't have much wouldn't want to support ways for them to get more money (or so it seems, like I said above), because they will see it as being greedy. No need to explain math behind it. As I said, that is what it seems like and the air it gives. You may not be doing it for big money, that is a Subeta thing with why submitting costs as much as it does, but again, it gives off the air that that is what is going on. And people are always going to want and look for discounts and may not buy your item for it, which is why I've been saying, do it purely for you because lots of things that come along with making CWs are a headache and a risk when you can't fill slots, so you end up losing money, so if it's not purely for wanting your item, it's going to be expensive, frustrating, and disappointing. If you're not up for that, then my advice is do not make CWs. You seem to be taking that very personally, when it was not meant to be, which is why I didn't ping you to my other comment. I mean, I've seen you around the forums, but I don't even know you or your selling methods to be getting personal with you, so that's why it came off as a weird attack to me, in the first place. o.O



And thanks again for a better run down of what is expected to come along. Especially that database because it is needed. I don't like sifting through my wardobe to find a CW, so that'll make things so much easier. I know you have no power over the forum or the costs of submitting CWs. I'm more hoping that Keith and staff see it because these are genuine questions that need complete answers in a completely public place, like the news, because some people don't even go to the forums much, but still buy CWs from pawn/trade/auction and need to know what's happening and the new changes. And I could have sworn people have asked for smaller submission batches for a while, so I'm glad that is finally being discussed. I just hope these changes really do benefit all involved because CWs were a great idea, but they have kind of been a roller-coaster to watch and full of drama, when they didn't start out that way. It used to just be fun, now it's way too serious.
4
Hamlet
"People want to know why things are getting released to friends only and having maybe 1-2 slots left when pinged for the public? The fact that otherwise we can't fill a batch. You want to know why Privates are bigger now than they ever were? Same reason."



I dont understand this at all. Most of the CWs i submit are for myself, and i pay the 1.6k CSC to submit them to my shop. I then price them in my shop for maybe 100-200CSC more than the base price so that if i do ever sell a copy, i make a little back. Most of my CWs will never make back what i paid to submit them, but i dont care about making the money back/making a profit, i care about having that item to wear on site and if someone else likes that item then that makes me happy and thats it.



If you don think that your CW will fill a batch then why not just submit it to a shop and let people buy from there? It saves having to wait weeks/months for the batch to fill before it gets on to the site and it gives everyone that wants a copy the option to buy. If you only sell 2 copies then thats fine, you wouldnt have been able to fill a batch if youd done it the other way but you still get the CW on site. If it sells 20 copies then congrats, you made a popular CW! I guess people dont do it that way because 'omg what if people flood the market with my precious CW and it becomes worthless' because heaven forbid that you sell lots of copies and make back what you spent/make a profit only to have those items resell for a mere 300CSC.



On a completely different note, what ive never understood either is how people are all 'im going to submit this gorgeous CW in blonde/brown/black for me and my friends but the public versions will be pink and aqua' :/ Like surely youre going to sell more of the natural colours than the obscure colours right? I have so many private CWs on my WL that had gorgeous initial colours but were publicly released in obscure colours that id never wear.



I made the mistake of making a private CW many years ago and have regretted it since. Quite a few people have wanted it since and all the time i wish i could go back and change it as i feel terrible for restricting it and not letting more people get a copy. I learned from that and i dont understand how more people dont feel bad for basically saying 'hahaha youre not my friend so you cant have a copy' as i know i feel awful after just that one time many years ago.
12
Pit_Bull
Why oh why is this happening? I bought most of my CWs at the pawn shop and this is going to impact my enjoyment of Subeta in a really pretty negative way. Quite sad.
3
Reaper
@Galaxia

Oh man, missing the things I really want makes me the saddest, but as someone who's getting frustrated trying to fill batches, I understand why they're doing a single batch and asking their friends first. I get it 100% (and I get that people do try to slot/support on items they want, there's a lot of lovely folks out there claiming on a variety of things and that is great).



Same for folks with social aversions and anxieties. Sometimes being active on the boards is rough, and that's fine. I don't think that's always the case (as are none of the other things I've brought up of course). There are definitely a lot of factors that go into it, but I do think the Pawn had a negative impact, especially with the decreasing value thing they put in (it was a thing that got tried and just didn't work like hoped I don't think).



I have nobody blocked at all, so there's no chance (for me at least) on that end. I've never had an interaction with someone that was so bad that I felt I needed to block them (which is good for me!), even when disagreeing with folks I have not yet ever felt the need to block.
0
Reaper
@Doe



So, I'm going to try to explain once more before I give up, because you're missing the point. I KNOW NOT ALL CWS WILL BE POPULAR ENOUGH TO FILL A BATCH. I am fully aware of that. The issue, however, is not that people don't want them, it's that they are not willing to slot on things if they can feel reasonably secure in the knowledge that they can wait and buy it secondhand for less.



However, what that means for people releasing (who have already spent a fair amount getting an item made most of the time), is that they now have to put out even more of their money to get the item on site (which yes, is a risk you sign up for when getting an item made). At that point, people will go buy it from their shops or secondhand or pawn. Nobody is saying "hey folks, slot my thing you don't want so I can get rich". Nobody is even saying "hey slot so I can break even". We're down, we're likely going to stay down, that is what happens when you buy things you want. But what we're saying is "man, it really sucks to watch people willfully choose not to slot on something and then immediately go on the hunt for said item at a discount once it has been approved on site."



Also, I have been in the CW market since Day 1 and I have no idea what a "prommie" is, so forgive me, but I cannot even remotely address that because I've literally never heard the term.



People want to know why things are getting released to friends only and having maybe 1-2 slots left when pinged for the public? The fact that otherwise we can't fill a batch. You want to know why Privates are bigger now than they ever were? Same reason. Why bother with the market when the market wants to go "nah, I don't want that for 500 but now that you have 2 spares left, why don't you sell it to me for 300?" At which point I politely tell people that it's not really fair of me as the releaser to immediately sell things at a discount to someone that people who slotted paid full price for (and unfortunately, this actually happens a lot when I have a spare copy). I'll get people coming to me noting that they liked the item but did not slot, and then asking me to discount the price on the extra I have from the unfilled batch. So clearly it really isn't demand, it's this idea that they're special and shouldn't have to pay full price even though everyone else did.



As to the whole thing where people are complaining that folks pawned their stuff - most of the actual serious complaints I've seen about that (up until this news post, where everyone has decided to vent every feeling they kept to themselves about the pawn shop) were from folks who released private items to friends/a group and offered to buyback the things at the same price if the person didn't want/couldn't use it anymore and then found them in the pawn. Like, when you release something and you say "hey, if you don't want this thing, please let me know and I'll buy it back from you at the same exact price you paid me", it's pretty shitty to then see that they couldn't be assed to do the thing they agreed to when buying it. If you don't like the request/rules/etc, it's not really that hard to just not buy the thing, so I understand where they're coming from. The entire point of Custom Wearables in the beginning was to have private releases for yourself and friends (like, mon frere, you could not even slot items initially - you submitted and paid the 5k yourself because everything was 5k back in the day - at best you could collect CSC cards from people who wanted copies and use that to help try to get it paid for, but if it got denied you had a mess trying to make sure everyone got their money back).



And I'm sorry you think it's greedy to not want to have to pay out another $20 of my own money for an item someone is going to ask to buy a copy of off of me later. I'm super greedy in the hundreds I've spent getting things made, getting recolors made at buyers' requests (which they then don't even buy a copy of, oh well), and getting more things made at the request of other people because I like wearables. I'm sorry me trying to help support artists and releasers by also slotting on other peoples' things makes me so damned greedy that I ask people to slot if they like something instead of waiting until it goes in my shop. It's often now why I tell people that if I have to direct to shop it, the price is going up for anyone who didn't ask for a slot before I submitted it.



Also, again, having been here since the beginning, I've rarely, if ever, seen anything slot for over 700 csc. I think maybe in all my time here I've seen 5 items slot for more than that. Out of 20k I'd say that's pretty damned good. The 700 pricing has been explained in my math several times over, in several places, but once more: if you have something that submits at 5000 csc and you have to provide an artist copy, the only way to not have to put in EVEN MORE of your own money is to price it that way - hell, if you're doing a joint release and have to provide an artist copy plus get your copy and a copy for your partner who helped pay for the art, even at 700 you're still paying some.



If you don't think an item is worth the going slot price, don't buy it. Super simple. But you can't then whine and cry that people won't sell it to you for what you think the value is, nor can you demand releasers lower their price to your standard and then bitch when they won't offer you a discount.



Quote:


If people end up not wanting to buy them, that is the risk you and/or the artist took when you initially decided to make the item (before any money was spent by anyone).




I know I addressed this already, but I want to make sure it's getting clearly heard. I don't care if the item isn't popular, I get that some things are going to be submitted all at my own cost. I have done it before, I will do it again. My problem is that I shell out the extra to get it on site, and then I literally watch as all the copies "nobody wanted" are bought. I watch things go into pawn and be offered in there at 600 csc and be snatched right on out when the releaser sat there for 2 weeks trying to get someone to slot on that copy for the same price. So, your argument that all of these items we can't fill a batch on being unwanted falls extremely flat in the face of the evidence which proves otherwise.



Quote:
no one wants to give the "rich and talented" more money when we know that they could release a selling board and make more CSC or sP in a few days than most users see in years.




There's no "Class System" on Subeta. My ability to own/release/buy/wear/trade/destroy a CW does not impact your ability to sit down and do quests or restock to earn sP, with which you can buy csc. At the current rate, based on my current questing, it takes just over a week to earn enough sP to buy 700 csc if you do all of your standard quests daily and have a GA. If not, maybe a week and a half.



And, so that we're super clear, because I think you keep missing this (despite the number of 'big name' artists who have also said the same thing - those are the folks we pay to make these lovely cws by the way): WE ARE NOT MAKING ANY MONEY OFF OF THIS. There isn't "MORE MONEY" to be giving them because they really aren't making money to start. Most artists are making LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE every time they make a CW. I'm gonna math it again for you. An artist asks for $50 for a background. They spend a total of 10 hours working on it. They have now made a whopping $5/hour. If there's a denial and they have to do edits that take more than a few minutes? LESS AN HOUR! Yes, some people are faster than others, yes some can get that background done in half the time, so now they've made $10 an hour. That's still actually less than minimum wage in my state, and far more labor intensive (and customized creations at that) than what most people are doing to earn their $10/hour. So....I'm sorry y'all think that people who make art are elitists who are just shoveling your money into bags and swimming in it, but that's sadly not the truth or the facts, and maybe it's time to actually sit down and think about how greedy it is to demand someone work for even less than the minimum living wage because you don't like the pricing and feel it's "unfair" that they charge for their work.



Would that I was rich and talented and could make back even half of what I spent. And this is not me being greedy or expecting anyone to make up for it, it's a simple stated fact because you keep saying how we're making money off of this and we should be doing it for the love/want of a thing and not that - which is what I'm doing or I wouldn't bother with them at all. Would it be nice to not have to pay additional money to get things approved and/or to actually get back some of what I spent? Yep. And guess what, it doesn't make me greedy. Greedy is demanding someone lower their price because I can't afford it and it's unfair to me because I don't want to work for it.



Quote:
Also, @ Reaper, thank you for shedding some light on what is supposedly supposed to be happening with CWs in the future. However, again, people would have a much better understanding of CWs if they weren't hidden and their ideas were more clear. I've never really understood why that forum was hidden from everyone else. I though Subeta was supposed to be more transparent about things, but not really. That, as Facade (I believe) said, creates a huge Us v. Them mentality. Regular users have no idea what is going on, so if something is crappy with CWs they are going to blame the artist and CW makers. They are going to believe you're all plotting things because they are away from common eyes. I hope that is changed in the future, as well.




To be fair, there are 3 forums for CWs that are publicly opened, as well as the Suggestions & Ideas forum and some of the subforums, and the Feedback thread. I do not know why that one forum is restricted access - it's not up to me, I have no way to change it. Same with submission costs. And as to that, I'm hoping the dynamic pricing appears sooner rather than later.



Here are the main things that are coming/being worked on to be implemented ASAP to help with the issues:



  • r200 shops where CWs can be priced in CSC instead of sP (like normal user shops, fully searchable on shop search, but for all the old crap we're trying to offload) - or possibly just allowing r200 items to be priced in csc inside current user shops (I'm unclear which way they're going with this)

  • Smaller initial batch requirements - you'll now only need to worry about 6 slots instead of 10 when submitting

  • more dynamic pricing so that items can be submitted or sent direct-to-shop at more reasonable rates, thus lowering the costs all around without hugely negatively impacting the site

  • Custom wearable database. This will be a page with filters like the wardrobe / pawn shop page, where you can drill down. Also filter by items in custom wearable shops, your wishlist, friends wishlists...



    All of these are things currently and actively being looked at and were brought up at the same time Keith said they'd decided to decommission the buying aspect of the CW Pawn. They effectively added a lot of things to their plate, but it's based on user feedback and their acknowledgement that the pawn was not helping the economy.
  • 4
    Galaxia
    @Reaper



    Whereas I'm coming at it from the opposite aspect, there've been a few items I didn't pings to that I'd love to slot on but got the ping too late and it's just the one batch. I can't seem to catch the items I want to save my sanity; I want to help fill slots on the stuff within my interest, I promise, it just never seems to work out. So there's bitterness and coping via sour grapes, and anger on both sides when we're all just trying to figure out how to function as best we can. It's a mess.



    I do wonder if it's people with social phobias or aversions grabbing copies via shops, which is sympathetic enough, but it's still rough on releasers. It's also potentially users who you blocked or are blocked but can still access the shop, which is a loophole I'd actually like to see closed.
    1
    Athens
    Have to agree with what Doe stated: we know the risks we take when releasing CWs. As a non artist releaser, I've spent quite a bit of money getting CWs made that I personally love. I wasn't too concerned about profit because it was something that I wanted to use myself. If my stuff ended up in the pawn shop, I didn't sweat it. I would simply buy it and gift it to someone who had it on their WL. Was no skin off my back. I don't know how I feel about the pawn shop closing (because I did recently grab a few WL items that I missed because I was offline) but I'm willing to see what comes of it.
    5
    Reaper
    @Galaxia

    Yeah, obviously that isn't always the case, but I've had that happen several times now, where immediately after being put in my shop and an announcement sent, the remaining copies are bought. Most of the people following my shop are also in my ping group (which is open and public) and I'm sure a lot of them are also in customwear and several of the other ping groups for filling slots - so the conclusion is that they didn't want to take a slot to help get it on site, but were perfectly happy to grab one as soon as the work was already done and I was now down a lot more money. TBH it makes me want to not release the remainder of copies anymore.
    1
    Doe
    Also, @Reaper, thank you for shedding some light on what is supposedly supposed to be happening with CWs in the future. However, again, people would have a much better understanding of CWs if they weren't hidden and their ideas were more clear. I've never really understood why that forum was hidden from everyone else. I though Subeta was supposed to be more transparent about things, but not really. That, as Facade (I believe) said, creates a huge Us v. Them mentality. Regular users have no idea what is going on, so if something is crappy with CWs they are going to blame the artist and CW makers. They are going to believe you're all plotting things because they are away from common eyes. I hope that is changed in the future, as well.
    3
    Doe
    @Reaper. I'll oblige you, though I wasn't the first to throw shade and not ping, but that's just petty to point out. :)



    Anyway, most people in here complaining about entitlement and how they aren't "getting back what I lost" is wanting to break even or make money. Not sure how that can be seen any other way. You spent money to get it on the site and you want to break even or get some return on what you spent. What are you trying to break even on or make money for, then, if you aren't concerned with it and would just have made the item anyway? Why is it an issue? I feel it is more than just simple devaluation as people are trying to argue. Why not argue the same for permanent cash shop items or any site items because they lose value and are resold for way less than they did, initially? I also never said artist make a bunch of money off their CWs. I'd think Subeta is making the most off them, not the users. Which is why I mentioned wanting to know why SUBETA could not lower submission prices, so things could go down some, overall. I never said people didn't just go ahead and make their CWs or bench them because people do it all the time, they are obviously not the ones I'm talking about. I'm talking directly about the people who want changes because they feel their items are worth a lot (which is subjective) and they didn't like them being sold over again for a lower price and, supposedly, devaluing the item. Thing is, if someone pawned your item, it's most likely because they could not find anyone who wants to pay a slot price or higher for it and/or it was too tedious. It can be a nightmare trying to comb through the CW forums. It's not just the pawn shop devaluing things. Things literally only have the value someone is willing to pay for it, so if it got tossed in the pawn shop after someone tried to sell or trade it and it got to the lowest selling price, it's simply not worth the slot price, anymore. Or Subeta should have never instituted the items going down in price over time, because, obviously, people are going to wait to get a better deal. That’s just commonsense. And let's be honest, while there are good pieces in the pawn shop, a lot of them are from early days, when standards were not very good. Unless it's some significant item that might mean something to someone or have the right shade for an HA or something, like a Star Wars wig in a particular brown hue, it's probably not going to be bought. Mostly because someone will have made a better Star Wars wig and the one with older art will not sell anymore. The great thing about CWs is that every few weeks or months, someone comes up with a better version of something older. The older item is just not going to sell as well, anymore. When an artist sees it in the pawn shop and is upset it's selling for less, well, because it's worth less, now. Not to say it wasn’t ever good, obviously, but it's not as in-demand. It's like some CWs sellers believe their item should ALWAYS get top dollar, but it simply can't. I haven't been on the CWs scene for a while, since I stopped going in (it started to have too many "exclusive/private releases" for me and gave me a bad taste, like when the prommies were a thing, and I didn't want to have anything to do with that; I'd hope it's not still at that level, now, but going through the comments, it's still a thing, which alone leaves a bad taste in people's mouths and they steer clear, leaving even more people who don't want to spend money on CWs), so no I'm not the most current, you are correct. Though, your experience is not going to be the same experience of every single person. As mine will similarly not be. I get most of my CWs from friends or the occasional item I get from the pawn shop. Last I remember, there were slots going for 700-900 CSC. I'm still in the ballpark with 700 CSC, even if it's a little over on the higher end, so not sure why you pointed that out, especially since they will sell for that high when an item is new or has lots of interest, like you said...



    And you're talking about all you must spend/give to get an item onsite. Again, this is up to you, from coming up with the idea to getting an artist in on it and making a deal to spending the money to get things started initially, so it is as simple as just don't make an item if you don't just want it on site for yourself. You're either ready to sacrifice the cash to get it on the site or you're not; you know that before you spend any money on anything or even contact an artist. However, yes, I get that no one wants to just spend money and go through the effort and then no one wants a slot or you can't fill them to get your item made, so you can pay your artist and recoup a bit, but it doesn't exactly fall on the shoulders of other users, is what I'm getting at. If people end up not wanting to buy them, that is the risk you and/or the artist took when you initially decided to make the item (before any money was spent by anyone). If you have get no interest and you're out money, well, then you just have to eat the cost and move on. Subeta, with this change, is coming in to protect the “company” (user) that got in a mess by assuming their item would sell well and retain value. Artist and CWs makers who want to force people to only be able to get it from them, at their valuation (which is always subjective to everyone, something might be worth 500 CSC to the artist, but most other people think it's worth 300 CSC, at best), is kind of harsh and does make you all seem kind of greedy, even if it isn't the truth. No one is forcing anyone to make a CW and, like most things, it is a risk. Another thing is, a lot of "regular" users already feel way behind artists and CW makers because they can make more than the regular user (especially with how CSC is so much more expensive to buy with sP, now), so this whole move seems like a big cash grab, whether it is or not. I understand it, though, but what I'm saying is how it looks and no one wants to give the "rich and talented" more money when we know that they could release a selling board and make more CSC or sP in a few days than most users see in years. It's funny, but it's almost like Subeta has classes and Subeta is making a move to protect the upper class. Might not be true, but it's what like after CWs came on the scene. And it makes sense because it makes Subeta money.



    Can all of that be fixed in a completely fair way? Probably not, as you can't please everyone with everything. I believe Subeta made a few missteps (having CWs cost so much to make and having the pawn shop lower price on items over time; if something is left after a certain amount of time, maybe 3 months, clear them or give them back to the original creator and let them figure things out), but, hopefully, they can be fixed. Lastly, I wish Subeta would properly explain things to users and not just say, “something better is planned/coming.” The bits and pieces we are getting in the comments are not well explained and a user should not have to dig for this, frankly important, information. If we were presented with this AND the solutions to it, in full to let us see the vision Subeta sees, I don’t think there would be so much fallout, unless the new idea is genuinely bad. Subeta is like that, though, which causes drama to the highest scale.



    I wrote this earlier before I went out, so if things have been addressed between then and now, sorry for my inaccuracy.
    6
    bunny
    @Julie yes, you already made that joke.
    1
    Julie
    @lottie

    Yeah I thought I'd put my two cents in so that someone can collect it and maybe get a CW. ;)
    2
    Khaiya
    because of the massive walls of text.... I am keeping my comment brief. I do not like this decision, yes I know the r200 threads have better discounts, but some of my best CW finds have been on the Pawn Shop pages. Things not available anymore form the original shops for whatever reasons. *shrugs*
    0
    Thunderbird
    Coming into this thread as a largely non-CW user:



    [img src="http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2013/2/7/darkest_timeline.gif"]
    0
    Ursa
    im seeing a lot of assumptions that artist = releaser and thats not the case huehuehue

    poor releaser had to fork out money to commission the artist. theyre not trying to break even on their stuff, let alone profit.

    theyre just trying to cut losses as much as they can.



    CUT

    LOSSES



    CUT

    CUT

    CUT



    nobody profits from cws

    NOBODY

    NO

    ONE

    PROFITS

    (and those who do in turn use their "profits" to help someone else get items onsite, so ya, the profit goes back to the community anyway smh)
    4
    Galaxia
    @Reaper



    That is terrible, what you mentioned about people just waiting to grab it immediately from shop rather than bothering to slot on it; I can understand someone finding it after the fact, but that doesn't sound like what you're describing. I haven't had that happen, but I don't do limited releases and that's probably what @Cathii is talking about with the wider perspective.
    0
    omnibless
    TLDR: good for buyers (-$2~$3), bad for sellers (-$7).



    as for head and hair items, I think it's time wigs and head accessories get different categories. That 2-column list layout also needs to change. With all that empty space, CW pawn shop isn't as organized as it could be.
    0
    bunny
    @Julie are you adding your two cents after making fun of everyone for adding their two cents now? Hahahaha.
    2
    Julie
    Me being new to the CW releasing market, I found selling recolors directly to my shop was way easier than taking note of who wants what. You can limit it if you want, what I didn't like to do to anyone who wanted my CWs was for them to pay over what was slot price and for them to get a chance at getting a slot. It makes me sad when you find a unique wig and bam, it's one batch and sold out... and future recolors are the same. You know you have a hot commodity, why not make one color where everyone can get it without the need to be on 24/7, or feel out of the loop/clique with the seller. If you like, join the seller's ping group, you get first dibs before customwear. Anyways, I hardly buy from secondary markets (R200) or Pawn Shop. I feel if I don't get it, it's not meant to be and look, the sun will come out tomorrow. :)
    2
    usagi
    (this is all with lots of grains of salt because I'm not that in the cw market :'D /flail)



    I don't think the pawn shop was the chief cause of the cw economy being the way it is.

    I agree with User not found (1): facade re: item worth. Taking the pawn shop away is not going to change that.



    r200 boards generally offered (and still offer) way better discounts than the pawn shop anyway. And that goes for items not in the pawn shop.

    I mean did people want to offload cws at prices of 400, 500 precisely because the pawn shop's buying and selling prices? I don't really think so.

    Chances are people wanted some csc back for the item and who cares if it didn't sell at slot price if they were needing csc and/or used the item?

    Losing 200 csc in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem like a lot when you have a lot to sell and you already feel like you used the item and got some wear out of it. At least that's how I feel like when I price the cws.



    And then once people see any price the general rule of thumb is to stick to it. If it went for 500 once or twice when slot price was 700 then hey it must not be highly sought after, right? Conversely, if someone, anyone, wanted it for 5k then it must be in demand. And while that's usually true (as in no one just offers 5k on a cw rotting in trades unless they're generous / bored), it's not exactly always the case, but it seems like we generally fixate on past prices in order to be "fair" to everyone we forget demand can fluctuate. The pawn shop exacerbated this issue, because it was in a way more public. You went there and saw a cw in x color and maybe thought if that's there then the same cw in y color could just as easily be there unless it's like super private or something. You saw it just sit and rot because of how available it was that people even if they vaguely wanted it were like ooh but I can get that tomorrow because they'd prioritize other limited cws over the pawned one. However, I don't think the pawn shop was the root of the problem. I think people wanting to sell for less than slot price on r200 until it became like a regular thing to the point of hey it's not really new, it's on a r200 board, you shouldn't be really trying to sell that wig for its price of 700 became a mentality thing?



    yeah that's the way I see it, idk like I said I've not been active A LOT in the cw community but when I was, it was mostly r200 boards precisely because I had less csc to spend and I wanted to play catch up with older cws I wanted and knew r200 was a cheaper option and hey, it was and still is! so yeah, I think that's the issue there



    omg I need to shut up now, holy wall of textttttttt o___o; /backs away to a corner lmao
    3
    Reaper
    @facade

    I swear it was the other way around but also possibly I got that backwards. Most of the cheap stuff was way old though, I do know that.



    It's not necessarily about the loss factor on the overall cost so much as how it's been devaluing the entire market - there's no inherent value to the items you slot on because if 3 spaces didn't fill, sometimes the creator has to pawn the spares, so you paid 700 csc for your slot, but you can go buy it for less already in pawn because that was the only way to try and recoup some of the loss you just paid out submitting to the site. On top of that, some people slot and then pawn because now they have other slots to pay for. I mean, it's rare, but newly approved items sometimes appear in the pawn within 24 hours for whatever reason. It's hard for people to go "I like this, but if I end up not using it, I'm only going to get 300 csc back out of the 600 I paid because people don't buy unless you sell for pawn pricing" so that makes it difficult for them to have faith that the item will be worth what they paid still.



    My understanding is that items that are r200 will be able to be priced in CSC but will work the same as normal shops, so you could conceivably go to my shop, click the "wishlist search" and see anything I have in there that is on your WL - just like you can right now with normal sP shops and/or galleries (AHAHAHA, apparently I accidentally quickstocked NY tokens into my cw selling gallery so yay for that feature because I need those). So, while it won't show you every person's shops with cws, if you're going to a shop that has them, you will be able to see if they have anything from your WL with a click of the button!



    Ah yeah, I'm not sure why that forum is restricted to only people who have submitted a CW and had it approved. I've wondered that for a long time actually.



    Maybe @Keith can explain why the CW Creators Forum is restricted that way?
    0
    what
    @Reaper



    Quote:
    a lot of what was bought (according to posts by Keith who has access to the backend) were things that really weren't cheaper




    I was looking through the comment chain for staff's input and this showed up:



    Quote:
    The pawn shop devalues the price of CWs, most purchases happen when the item has reached the end-of-price-lowering and it makes it hard for people who actually make CWs to keep a value on their items, or people who purchase them.




    which is really confusing?



    anyway, so primary concern from your perspective was a net loss (people paying $7 to get item and then another $4-$5 from person buying from pawn shop instead of a possible another $7 from trades or r200). In that case yes, I can see why creators or frequent sellers want the pawn shop shut down. But definitely still think that buying a CW secondhand should be refined to the ease of that of the Pawn Shop's before letting it go. r200 shops is an amazing idea to combat this, but i think some sort of wishlist search for that should be in order, too. Slowly my CW wishlist gets longer and it is indeed a pain in the ass to individually click through and check availability. if it's actually the case keith mentioned though, then closing pawn shop doesn't make much sense, and stopping the price decay feature would be best.



    Also, I can't access the Creators subforum since I'm not a member. Think that's part of why there is an "us vs. them" mentality here. Thanks for letting us know it's worked on, though it would be nice if staff relayed those ideas to us more
    1
    ShayBaby
    Aw. This makes me sad. I enjoy browsing through the CW Pawn Shop even if I can't afford to buy anything (so, always).
    1
    Trendy
    To me, this cements the fact that CWs were never a good idea.
    9
    Reaper
    @facade

    Thank you for clarifying! I was like...seriously I am not calling anyone those things haha.



    And yeah, people who are always hunting for the cheapest cws probably will not buy, but a lot of what was bought (according to posts by Keith who has access to the backend) were things that really weren't cheaper, so I think this will just possibly help folks (me included) who went "eh maybe later" decide to buy if they actually want it.



    Dude right? I'm like...you should have bought it when it was there my friend, because I'm gonna ask you for what I paid, and sometimes I'll go a little lower, but I'm not taking half off because one time someone who quit dumped their wardrobe into the pawn (which has happened recently).



    I don't know if it's been brought up here or not, but Keith has been listening to suggestions from creators/releasers and is looking into making the submission pricing more dynamic overall and reducing batch size requirements, so hopefully that will help breathe some life back into things for us all. I honestly don't care if I paid $50 back in the day to submit, I'm so happy they've been listening to suggestions and adjusting the pricing to make more sense for us. I know they have to think of the bottom line too (because we only have Jessi right now and even with a reduction in submissions, it's still a lot of work and overwhelming for one staff member, so they have to make it cost effective on their end as well), but I'm glad they're at least trying to work on the problem.



    I think the biggest helping factor will be r200 user shops, where we get to put our CWs up for sale for csc instead of sP, and then they're easy to see on shop search. I don't always remember to do run-throughs on my wishlist to see if anything is listed in shops/trades (and I never remember to search galleries even though I have a giant one filled with CWs I'm selling). It will allow us to sell without so much of the hassle. And we can still do forums/take sP/trades/etc. It will just make it easier to see it all.



    Also yeah, the price decay I thought was not a great idea from the start, but I understand the thought process behind it (because that CW Pawn fills up so fast and then things just hang out forever). I wish it had worked out better, but I think it's definitely done more bad than good for the market.
    0
    Judin
    Adding a little comment to contribute to the balance.



    I don't know how this will affect the CW economy, but I have faith that staff has considered it carefully before making their decision. I have gotten many lovely items out of the pawn shop, and I will miss it, but I am curious to see what consequences this will have, and if it can improve the current conditions. Personally, my greatest concern right now is the rising price of csc, which MIGHT be somewhat remedied when we aren't sinking any into the pawn shop.
    0
    KarenP
    At the time the pawn shop was implemented, it fixed a problem at that time, but now it is the problem. I am all for it closing personally, the cw market needs some help and I hope this helps it.



    Let me also break down for you what it costs, me as a releaser, who is not an artist to get a cw on site:

    1. pay artist anywhere from $10-$100(usd) to get the item drawn

    2. try and get slots(almost impossible at this point in time) filled

    3. hope the slots fill to at least one batch, so you don't have to put in csc also on top of the USD you paid to get item made

    4. most likely pawn batch extras or sell less than slot because slots did not fill



    so why should I as a releaser, even release more cw's if my cw is not slotting, I am not profiting(which there is usually not at all!) and have my cw devalue right after release.



    I hope the changes to come we will be able to fill batches again, get the cw market going strong, and bring new artists and commissioners to the cw market!
    5
    what
    @Reaper the selfish part of my post wasn't directed at you lol, sorry my post is badly formatted. the only part directed at you was the middle part



    - yes people want item for cheaper, but restricting the pawn shop is not going to fix that as much as you would like it to. for some people it's "cheap or don't buy at all" unless they absolutely need it. by denying access to pawn shop, people would still want an item for cheaper, stuff will still get resold once someone doesn't like it, if no one buys price lowers down, etc. i agree it's rude to demand pawn shop price for an item...not even in pawn shop though lol

    - also YES the big big problem is definitely submission prices, as sP-CSC ratio has gone up dramatically. however CSC is also a currency based on RL money so I get that it's hard to just lower submission prices without some people getting in an uproar over it too ("UGH I PAID $50.00 BEFORE UNFAIR!") and Jessi overworking, so am hoping staff come up with better solution

    -

    i think it's funny how staff did the "price decay over time" thing in the pawn shop though like way to go guys... kind of brought it upon yourselves...
    3
    Reaper
    @facade

    While I get where you're coming from (as I've stated numerous times, I get that some items just aren't popular), I'm not talking about impulse slotting. Some things take awhile to fill the batch, I'm also not talking about that.



    But I have literally, firsthand, not been able to fill a single batch of an item, had to direct to shop it, put the remainder of the items left that didn't fill (ie, I said one batch, had 7 slots including mine and artist, put the remaining 3 copies up in my CW shop) and watched them fly out of there in seconds. So, the argument that people don't want them isn't always true. It's that they figure they can get it later and don't slot now. Especially when they can go "huh, maybe someone will toss it in pawn and I can get a discount". Also, the number of people who come to buy something second-hand from me and go "oh it was in pawn 6 months ago for X, will you sell it to me for that" is astounding. So yes, people just want discounts. They don't want to pay what I had to pay to get it on the site, and unfortunately my level of control over that is pretty limited since I don't set submission prices.



    And I literally never once called anyone selfish. But people who tell me "I don't care if you lose $100 that's your fault, don't like it make it friends only" and then bitch if I do just that have made me far less inclined to take public slots at all for anything. So that's a two-way street when folks are sitting here calling everyone who submits greedy and accusing us of sitting on piles of csc like....no folks, we're losing and if we point out the cost, you tell us we should just not submit then, and then also complain that you can't get CWs? I don't understand the logic disconnect really.
    4
    Andrea
    I'm hoping that this is like phase 1, and phase 2 will be killing it all the way? The Pawn shop had merit when it first started but it's become a beast that just needs to stop. Very excited to hear for other options happening in the near future.



    I'm also really hoping that the end of the pawn shop will ultimately make it easier for the site to have CW shop sales (y'know, like 25% off or whatever they did for BF)? Which would still get the makers their cut, and hopefully sell more copies (to earn back a bit more of the submit-to-shop fees and whatnot), without the worry of utter devaluing the CW because worse case you'll get your money back without fear of "well there's 5 copies in the pawn shop LOL only buy it if you need it".



    Mostly I'm excited about the r200 shops thou. I kinda fell out of the CW game for this that or another, but sometimes I just really need something or I just like looking at all the pretty art/designs people have come up with. So glad that we'll hopefully have a less harmful means of browsing CWs for sale in the future!
    1
    what
    Hmm I kind of see the point people are getting at that maybe closing the pawn shop the buyer will go "ooh SHIt this item is NOW OR NEVER better impulse slot" but it's...just not going to be the case most of the time. The success of an item is still heavily reliant on whether or not the consumer actually likes the item, and limited-time offers don't really fix that.



    @Reaper I feel like people make generalizations of what the slotting process is because that's what it is for the items they want. It just so happens that the items they want often have those like 20 people fighting over like 2 non-preclaim slots or are private releases. Meanwhile the items that end up getting the customwear ping are stuff that...have trouble getting interest in the first place, it's stuff that a lot of people don't want. Again, people don't think item is worth => no slot.



    @ the "selfish" comment - yes everyone is inherently selfish, it's the basis of the economy. consumer doesn't think item is worth the premium, creator doesn't think item is worth shelling out money to release. no side is necessarily better than the other, we all want to save money here. and bashing a consumer for not buying at item at slot price will alienate the consumer (sure has made me less interested now).
    5
    Sabina
    I get that it needs to be done, but as someone who only has time to lurk a few minutes here and there, it kinda sucks having to rely on forums for CWs.

    Like I literally have the CW pawn shop bookmarked to look through it every so often for new things (I only ever check the first page of recently added items).

    Probably the only thing at this point I actually buy CSC for. Ah well I guess.
    2
    DarkVixen28
    This makes me sad. :c I understand why its being done, but, as a person who relies on thrift stores and secondhand items irl, understanding will not override the sadness.



    But I pose this question to any staffer that can answer:

    Why close the pawn shop before the other improvements are ready?
    7
    MidnightShadow
    I'm pretty bummed as the CW market got overwhelming WAY too fast and now it's basically so much stuff out there what is even the point of going and finding stuff to buy? Even the cw in the cs is kinda hard to just browse. Pawn shop was the only way I could find new items I didn't know about and wanted. As a casual user, this is just really alienating.
    8
    Reaper
    I just want to note, for everyone complaining that all the CWs being released on the forums are private/friends only/etc....



    In the last 15 days (which is all my ping history shows, Dec 23rd to now) have received 44 pings from the CustomWear ping group (which is only ping'd by folks who are releasing public wearables). That is an average of 3 releases a day that are public (obviously it is not necessarily 3 per day, some days would've had more, some less). All of this during the absolute slowest time for releases all year (because November through mid-January is hard hard hard to slot things, everyone is saving for the BF sale, then everyone is saving for gifts, then everyone is recovering).



    Typically, I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-40 pings from CustomWear, 1stbatch, and/or CWFill per day. All of those groups have restrictions on how often and when you can ping (customwear is the most strict, allowing for one ping every 2 weeks for each new public release you are advertising).



    Just joining CustomWear means you'll have access to the vast majority of the released CWs, and your only required interaction will be to click the ping, decide you like the item, and ping the releaser saying "slot on X please". We don't expect to be friends with everyone, you don't have to talk to us, you don't have to play at being friends. If you want to know how to see most of the new public items before they appear on site, just join the group.
    11
    Christopher
    No offense but the fact that people are bad at predicting interest in an item doesn't constitute an emergency on the market's part.
    11
    Stiles
    I've been reading more about what goes into CW's and.. I see both sides. I'm on the side that can't afford CSC even by SP most days, unless given by site events (so grateful for that ty site I mean that). Or (again) I'm gifted them by friends and I adore them for that.



    But, in reading how much money it takes and how much goes into actually putting or getting them onto site and not being able to break even.. that just sucks. I have no idea what a solution is, but I feel for both sides and I hope in the end everyone wins.
    6
    Engrave
    I like the CW pawn shop :/
    2
    Jonquil
    "There is a fine line in walking around the fact that now more than 20,000 items on the site are custom wearables and you will not be able to get every single one"

    Challenge accepted! *Runs off to try to win the lotto, to buy all 20,000 CWs*



    Seriously though, I have a handful of Custom Wearables, but I've bought them from both user shops and the pawn shop. Most were during special sale events, some not. I try to keep my contact with other Subeta buyers/sellers to a very minimum. If I see it in a shop and want/can afford it, I will buy it. The forum groups with the CW creators and sign-up sheet just scare me. I really don't even know how to begin to request to be included, or have the inclination to want to "sign-up" for something which may or may not be released some day.



    I look forward to any system that will let us navigate the CWs easier. As others mentioned, sometimes I didn't even know an item existed until I randomly browsed the Pawn Shop. Often, I would use the Pawn Shop to search items that I liked the artwork style, which would lead me to the maker's personal shop. Where in turn, I would buy a completely different item than what was in the Pawn Shop. If we had some method of "related" item search, I would absolutely love that!
    5
    Reaper
    Quote:
    If people won't pay 300-400-500 for an item than they sure as hell aren't going to pay 600-700 for it. This is just going to push people even further away.




    @Aloysius

    I don't really think that's the problem actually. At one point there were 20+ things in Pawn I wanted....but I didn't buy them because I figured 'eh, I'll get it later'. It's not because I wasn't willing to pay for the item, it's because I wasn't willing to pay right now for this thing I could get later. It's often why I don't buy items that are unlimited in user shops unless I actually need it for an HA right then. And it's a big factor in why I don't do unlimited batches unless I have to direct to shop something.
    7
    Reaper
    On a sidenote, @Keith I'm really excited about the r200 shops and I'm gonna keep telling you that everywhere because hurry xD I would love to move the gallery into a shop and just price that crap and not have to worry about it anymore.
    0
    Reaper
    So, I'm pretty sure your entire answer was directed at my post, without pinging me for whatever reason, but I'll address what you said @Doe



    Quote:
    If you're so worried about breaking even because you're not getting enough slots filled, and not just making CWs for the love of it or wanting your item on site, why even make it? Because, when CWs were released, we all knew that everything made was not going to be something everyone liked, so you were not guaranteed everyone filling up slots. Best to make things purely for wanting to the item. If I remember right, that was kind of the intent, from the start. YOU wanted an item on the site for you and your friends or cult; it was not supposed to be the new money-making thing it became, where you made something to "break even" or make money off it. Subeta, yes, users, not so much. I mean, if you're making something and slots don't fill up, even after weeks/months of waiting, why even make the item? So, a few people in slots won't get something, it was not promised to them and it's happened many times before. I've been pinged about an item months after and if I wanted it, I get it. If not, I'm sure someone else will be interested. It's also pretty entitled to believe, since you made an item by your own free will, you deserve to make back what you lost. No one forced you to want to make the item or put it on site. That is purely on you. Don't make the item if you don't have enough slots. Wait until you've gotten interest. If you never do, come out of your own pocket or bench the idea.




    I'm not actually worried about breaking even. I get things made because I want them. Sometimes I get recolors made because people ask for them (and half the time those people then don't even slot after they begged for it, but that's another story). I was addressing this notion y'all have that people who make and/or release CWs are getting rich off of it and illustrating how very much we are not. (as a side note, I pretty much never see people slotting items for above 700 csc unless they're new to the market, so I don't know where you got the bit of your argument that people are routinely asking 700-900 csc for slots - most items are 500-700 if you actually, you know, look at release threads).



    Also - I absolutely get that not everyone wants every item, a lot of things are pretty niche or pretty similar to other things on site already. However that statement about just not putting it on site if it doesn't get enough interest? That doesn't really work. Beyond the fact that we've already spent anywhere from $15-50+ (often in USD not in CSC) just to have it made, most artists require a copy of the item as part of payment. What that means is that, within the set time-frame from them, that item has to get on site, one way or another. So if I only get 5 people interested, I can't fill a batch, and I have to now come up with the difference. Or I have to use the direct to CS feature, which means if I stated the item was a single batch, I need to monitor how many copies I sell and then I have a permanent item sitting in that shop that I can never remove (because there's no way to remove items with 0 copies or items we do not want to ever sell again) AND I have to shell out 1300+ csc to get it on site (depending on what category it falls in). Doing that also does not give me a copy, because the 'free' copy I get for submitting that way has to go to my artist. So bare minimum spent is going to be 1500+ csc to get it on site. After I've spent X amount having it made.



    You're right, you aren't obligated to buy things just because someone spent money on them, but if you think it's as simple as "oh well don't make things then" you're missing out on the fact that people have already done that and don't want to basically just burn money by not getting it on site.



    Next time you wanna toss some shade at me, just ping me ;)
    9
    EmilyMae
    @sakura

    Selfish?!?



    I really don't understand if this will or wont affect CW shops. Will there be new rules? I think we need a "The bottom line is this...." type of post that just puts everything out on the table to clear up any confusion.
    6
    Sue
    I most certainly have to agree with @Cherri @Feanor @Commander5AM and @Akele about my preferred way to buy CWs, and I won't be using the forums either!
    6
    sakura
    god, so many selfish people in this comment section lol
    5
    Altruism
    I know a better solution: Keep the shop. Every time somebody buys their item from the shop, the artist gets a share.



    Everybody wins!
    8
    Altruism
    Economics anyone? Increasing scarcity when demand is already so low isn't gonna help at all.



    Certainly not from the consumers perspective.
    8
    Pinkpetals
    Wow, seems like many people like me don't buy cw anymore not only because of price, I use to buy lots but got tired of only friends, groups privates. So I stopped buying because of that, instead of being rewarding for wanting to buy your CW I was punished for wanting it so I stopped.
    10
    Akele
    Aww man... I found so much good stuff in the Pawn Shop. I'll occasionally buy stuff that I see in the Trades center if it's something I really like, but that's a rare occasion. Most of the CW's I purchased I got from the Pawn Shop. I don't always have the mental energy/desire to delve into the forums and deal with people. The Pawn Shop was great, because I could just browse, and find something great in there, without having to work up the nerve to talk to other people. Sigh.
    6
    Commander5AM
    So you're taking away the Pawn Shop, the place where I have bought pretty much all of my CWs, gee thanks Subeta!



    The CW forums are a joke, most CWs are private / friends only or limited 1 batch slots with a ton of user created rules that if you don't abide by you get blacklisted from ever purchasing CWs from that person (and others sometimes because they "share blacklists") again. I like the CW Pawn Shop because it also gives me access to older CWs that are no longer being sold without having to deal with users hyper inflating them in trades!



    What the heck is the point of it being called a Pawn Shop if you can't buy items from it? Rick Harrison would be ashamed.
    22
    Feanor
    Like many people here I actually buy from the Pawn Shop once in a while. The reason for this is not to get items 'cheap' but because I really dislike the CW forum.



    Half of the items being sold are exclusive/ friends only/ pinged only/ 1 batch/... making it a very inaccessible forum. Most of the time I feel like it's High School all over again and I'm not part of the preppy/cheerleader bunch.



    So yes, I was happy with the shop because I was able to buy things without feeling unwelcome or an intruder. Now that the shop will close I will not go back to the forum, because that feeling won't change. I will just not buy CW's anymore which also means I will not need CSC from the Cash Shop anymore...



    I do think that this decision will mean less income for Subeta.
    21
    Skylar
    I always felt intimidated by the CW forums because they feel cliquey for the most part. And, it seemed like you had to be on 24/7 if you wanted even a chance at slotting for something. That's the reason why I stayed away from CWs for a while.



    What got me okay with buying CWs was the Pawn Shop... No exclusive groups, no need to be online frequently, and a handy wishlist search. I've found some nice stuff, like a makeup I didn't know existed but it's exactly what I wanted. I'm upset that this is being closed except in certain events. It seems like CWs are going to be out of reach for more people now.



    I don't mind going to the forums to buy CWs, but I just don't want to feel like I don't belong because I can't afford a bunch of CWs a month. It would also be really helpful if there was some sort of search feature in the forums to find an item you want more easily.
    28
    Sue
    Well, I've only just started spending money in the CW Pawn Shop over the last few weeks so I don't suppose it will make a lot of difference to me - but on the positive side it does mean I don't have to spend so much real money on buying CSCs every month! I'll have more money in my pocket, Subeta will have less :)
    8
    Ursa
    this just in: i got new soap

    this time i bought a huge bottle so theres no way it can all go down the toilet



    i think
    10
    bunny
    I love the pawn shop, I've bought most of my cws from there because it was much easier than buying from users. For example one time I really really wanted a cw from someone's advertising board, they took 3 days to respond then asked me to pay 2x what they paid for it and then I found it in the pawn shop through a search and it was awesome. If you're concerned about cws losing their value it seems like this won't help, you're giving users the ability to inflate their value, which you know they will do, which would be great for your profits but not so great for the rest of us. Even if we get the ability to purchase cws from users, it's a shame not to have access to this year round. I know I'll spend less on csc because I can't just impulse buy items.
    11
    serinde
    Well, Pawn Shop was the only place where I could search stuff by WL/layers, prices etc. Trades don't have that, CW shops page is rather mess, inventory planned by Keith would be nice but I'm aware how long can those things sometimes take on Subeta, and I do not have time/patience to deal with forums. Also, since this is basically a way to make people pay more for CWs - I won't cause I simply can't afford it. So, the way it looks right now, I won't be getting any CWs anymore. Cool *shrugs*
    7
    poppet
    Quote:
    Like I get it that CWs aren't bringing in the big bucks anymore but WOW this is basically just a way to pseudo delete CWs so that people wanting a new one have to buy them from the users CW shop.


    I really like the way Christopher put this.
    7
    Mage
    Why?!?! D:
    1
    bune
    um... so... shouldn't an explanation have been included in the news post itself, rather than expecting users to just guess as to why this is happening, or expecting them to go through all the comments?
    15
    raumlet
    Really long post incoming. Sorry about that!



    I’m not particularly sad about the CW pawn shop closing because I understand the reasoning, but most of my CWs are bought through the pawn - the forums and the CW shop alike are a pain in the ass to pick through, completely leaving aside the functionality issues, and the pawn offered a quick, easy way for me to get into CWs that didn’t require hours of searching, posting, waiting, digging. The pawn is literally the reason why I finally got into CWs after years of eyeing them warily. It’s also how I got all of my no-longer-sold CWs. (We really need a way to get old CWs back into circulation.)



    That’s really my main issue with the pawn shop being closed. I know Keith has said they’re going to implement a new way to browse CWs, but we don’t know when that will be; in the meantime, CWs are going to be hidden away out of reach of the casual user again.



    And honestly? I don’t think the pawn is the only issue that the CW market faces right now. Oversaturation of very similar items, including a fucking torrent of recolors of some hairs. How many Princess Strands are there? 22! There are 22 colors. (I don’t care if most recolors are asked for - that’s excessive.) Drama surrounding cliques and privates, including a lot of entitlement on the part of CW artists regarding item use and ridiculous inflation of rare items. Quality issues, with a lot of items being approved - even today - that don’t match site style. New artists having difficulty getting approved without having a well-known CW publisher push one of their items to site.



    Admittedly, this is from the perspective of a rando on the outskirts of the CW community, but before you get upset with me, please ask yourself: Is that the impression you want your community to give outsiders? Because that’s what I’ve heard and seen so far.



    There’s other things going on as well - inflation of CSC, more frequent (and more attractive) item releases from the cash shop, etc. - but the CW market has plenty going on by itself to make it intimidating and unwelcoming to new buyers and new artists alike. Closing the pawn shop may bolster the CW community, and I hope it does because there are some great people and some beautiful art coming out of the forums, but it is not a cure-all. Here’s hoping we see some more changes, both in the site and in the community itself.
    18
    Guava
    o well hoping to get csc/enough csc to get the ones I want from pawn before it closes
    0
    ApexKitten
    Hmmm, honestly, I think CWs should all be cheaper than even pawn shop. Honestly though it can't really be fixed because the price just for submitting and approval of a basic CW is so freakin expensive. I considered doing it myself, but wasn't willing to pay 30-60$ fora gamble, and a return only in a virtual currency. Even if I profit CSC wise in the end, I'm still out 50$ so what's the point? :/ truly I think that submission prices should be much cheaper (around 500-1000CSC). Why? Well its gonna open the market up to allow more users to submit their products to the market. If the CW is approved, it means pricing would only need to be around 100-300 per item, which is obviously MUCH more favorable to people in general. I guarantee you CWs would NOT be losing value then because it would be a very steady stream of CSC for the most part. Theres so many users that would be willing to spend that amount. Youre missing out on a huge market of people (read the comments, it's half the people here) that aren't willing to pay 5-10$ just for ONE virtual item. If prices for submission were lower, item prices would be lower, BUT there would be a much larger market of buyers, more profit in the end. This would also mean more submissions from artists, more custom items being created daily. I understand you've gotta make money somehow, but the submission prices are too much, and it causes inflated prices upon release. Idk just my own opinion tbh.
    13
    Whimsical
    I get why it would be needed (the cw market and devaluing and all that) but also sad to see it go. :/ I finally got a job and could start purchasing csc too. Guess I'll be dumping my paycheck tomorrow into csc for the pawn shop while it's open.
    0
    Mayonaka
    @odduckOasis

    That was something I was already fully aware of, but thank you anyway.
    2
    springjoy
    Hum, I'm curious how the replacement will work. I have to say, as someone who is unable to spend real money for CSC, I usually saved up for a birthday splurge and could only afford something I discovered in the pawn shop. So this is a little sad for me as I am not able to consistently plunk down 700 csc whenever I see something nice, and am now not sure how my once a year treat to myself will be able to continue.



    I don't know much about the CW economy but apparently, this is a good move for a lot of you who make the CWs? I'm sure that it'll work out and there will still be chances for us with less CSC abilities to get items somehow or another. :)
    0
    Jinjah
    I meant I enjoyed using the Pawn Shop. It's 12.30am. I'm not at my best.
    1
    Jinjah
    I agree with some of the points made by facade. Generally I've bought from the pawn shop because I've found an item I didn't even know existed. I am probably one of the 5 or so percent who buy CSC the same day as purchasing from the pawn shop. I am also one of the offenders who buy and sell quite a lot to the pawn shop. Personally, I don't find it to be a great bargain. It's only in general 100CSC less than a private shop. Sorry artist, I really didn't know your shop existed and saw your item in the pawn shop. If I sell your item sometimes a very short time later, it's because I have other very similar items and I can't justify having it in there. Other times I might have your item for months but never end up wearing. I also lose real life money when I sell it for half of what I paid for it. I don't even want to think about how much money I've lost doing this. Having said that, I really did enjoy using the CW shop and hope whatever system replaces it will allow non-forum people to locate CW's.....the wig I'm wearing now was a pawn shop purchase, but I found it's sister in the artist's shop. :)
    4
    MOKONA
    @Kellijuana: LOL, go and sleep. XD



    Geez so hard to type while watching TV.



    While I'm glad to see the Pawn Shop close soon, I can understand/see why some users are dissatisfied. Personally, I'm happy to see it because it would increase the value of CWs. But I would really like to see the cost of submitting to be lowered it's kinda expensive for slotting and as other has mentioned a CW directory and/or

    easier ways to search CWs around the site.
    3
    Aloysius
    If people won't pay 300-400-500 for an item than they sure as hell aren't going to pay 600-700 for it. This is just going to push people even further away.
    24
    ulalena
    The plans for a user shop to sell CWs for CSC are a bright outlook.

    I seldom sell my CWs at all yet if I decide one day that I want to sell some, it would be very convenient to have an own shop for this with CSC pricing opportunity.

    The R-200 forum could be used for advertising nevertheless yet people not browsing the forums that often would find a desired CW more quickly.

    I love the idea, thank you so much for considering this, Keith!



    I don´t think we´ll find much highly popular 1 batch / friends only / private items in the Pawn Shop.

    I like to browse it several time a day because sometimes, I see a small accessory I don´t have so far and snatch it up for me or friends.

    Only very rarely to never, I find these highly in demand items in there.

    Often, I was the first in line not able to slot anymore because all slots where gone.

    So the item goes on my WL and brings me joy when looking at it, there are so many gorgeous designs our wonderful artists have created here.

    Perhaps, one day, I´ll be able to find it somewhere.

    And there is always the chance to use it in the wardrobe for free, be it for making our own designs, be it for participating in a HA challenge

    where all items are allowed. So we get to play around with the shinies for free and that´s a wonderful opportunity I am very thankful for.
    3
    Euphoria
    So I'm a bit late to the party but I'll add my 2 cents here as well. As a non-artist releaser, I've spent HUNDREDS of dollars on commissions. None of us releasers are making huge amounts of profit. Oh how I wish that weren't the case, but that's the way it is. Most of the time I 1 batch items because that's the only way I can get the item on-site. Hell, sometimes that doesn't even work and the item that I paid real money for sits in a folder on my desktop, never seeing the light of day again. I'm all for anything that perks the CW market back up. It's been a long time coming and I'm hopeful that these changes really are for the better of everyone in the CW fam.
    5
    SpecialK
    I can't believe this 😱 Not happy...sorry but bad move! collecting cw's and putting them on my HA is something I love doing and now I won't be able to do that :(
    1
    judykm
    Too bad. I liked having this option.
    0
    Beren
    Quote:
    and not just making CWs for the love of it or wanting your item on site, why even make it?




    this actually...

    That is the reason I started CW s - I have special things I want for my HA to wear.

    If I get the slots filled - great - if not - still fine,

    I will pay for the free slots since I want that Cw for my HA to wear.

    (and I hardly ever do more then one batch)



    I am sad about the CW a´panw being semi closed and only opened ocasionallly,

    since I tend to browse it to renadomly gift friends from their WLs from there.



    And this will be much harder if it is closed.



    But then I assume the staff will have good reasons for this.

    *sigh*
    8
    McKay
    Man I haven't seen this much drama since quentin posts or the oatmeal contest lmao



    I honestly don't mind this?? It never has anything I'm interested in anyway xD Also I see a lot of valid points here about CW being devalued by this shop which I think is true??
    1
    theladywrath
    I actually think this is good. I'm sure y'all are getting a lot of flack for it, but I think closing it down could really help the CW economy become what it used to be.
    1
    Raggy
    Well, Im not happy, its one of my favorite things to do here, its on my bookmarked sidebar, and I check it out frequently, as well as buy new cw from creators.

    In fact Ive often thought it a bit unfair that the pawn only gives you 200csc+ and sells for 500-600 [I sell as often as I buy lol]

    I would be very happy if we could have our own CW type shop and sell unwanted CW, but they will be harder to search for,whereas the pawn can just be trawled through using the filters. This wont make me buy more stuff it'll just tick me off because I cant buy older stuff.

    Have a clear out, only have 5 pages,or filter out the older unloved items, but please please let us still buy other peoples cast offs,and not once a year, but all the time.
    0
    bipolarness
    I can never afford them anyway, so I don't bother. If I see something awesome on an HA, I assume it's a CW and just go about my life. I was fine before the item, I'll survive without it. xD
    4
    Coraline
    Thank you, Keith! <3
    1
    LilyValentine
    This isn't going to increase the number of people buying from the artists. It's just going to result in even less interest in CWs.
    32
    Poet
    How is this supposed to make CWs easier for people to get? This decision is just forcing people to buy CWs from the CW shops, and most just aren't available anymore. Can anyone explain the logic behind "take away cheap CWs, make all CWs easier to get"? In a way, I'm kind of happy about it since I definitely won't be spending $200 a month of much-needed money on Subeta anymore, but it's still annoying.
    17
    Arwen_Undomiel
    agree with @Ciannwn on this.
    0
    Kellijuana
    Welp, I've been able to get about half way up the comments before I got burnt out, but I just want to thank everyone in here venting on either side about the way things have been with the cw market and the pros and cons that this change could have. It's been an interesting read seeing different sides of it, with the thought of r200 user shops being the highlight in my head!



    Must sleep. zombie brain.
    1
    TheseHeights
    Wow. God, I'm so pissed. The pawn shop is literally the only way I've been able to find some super old CWs that people won't sell in the advertising forum.
    8
    Doe
    All I can say is, people shouldn't take things so personally, but since they will... If you weren't the one doing something, why argue against it? Just because you didn't do something doesn't mean others did not. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Slot pricing is one thing, we know of slots being 700-900 CSC quite often, to recoup some cost and make some extra CSC, but having an auction to get 5k+ CSC (I remember seeing an auction where something was up to 30k!!! I want to link to it, but won't because I feel that is targeting) off one slot/item is huge. If you're so worried about breaking even because you're not getting enough slots filled, and not just making CWs for the love of it or wanting your item on site, why even make it? Because, when CWs were released, we all knew that everything made was not going to be something everyone liked, so you were not guaranteed everyone filling up slots. Best to make things purely for wanting to the item. If I remember right, that was kind of the intent, from the start. YOU wanted an item on the site for you and your friends or cult; it was not supposed to be the new money-making thing it became, where you made something to "break even" or make money off it. Subeta, yes, users, not so much. I mean, if you're making something and slots don't fill up, even after weeks/months of waiting, why even make the item? So, a few people in slots won't get something, it was not promised to them and it's happened many times before. I've been pinged about an item months after and if I wanted it, I get it. If not, I'm sure someone else will be interested. It's also pretty entitled to believe, since you made an item by your own free will, you deserve to make back what you lost. No one forced you to want to make the item or put it on site. That is purely on you. Don't make the item if you don't have enough slots. Wait until you've gotten interest. If you never do, come out of your own pocket or bench the idea. I swear, people like to throw entitlement around a lot, though. I'm not saying "do this so every single person on the site can get something". I'm not saying, things should stay in the pawn shop. I actually don't care if that is done away with. It's what has happened to CWs over time that bugs me and there will be continue to be a lost of interests exactly because of the reasons I mentioned, even if people just think it's the price. Yeah, not everyone will be able to afford it, but let's be honest, it's been that way from the very beginning (many people complaining or posting on CW boards about wishing they could afford it, but could not), so it's obviously something else that has led to the decline of people wanting CWs, too. CWs single-handedly pushed the CSC market so high that it can take someone quite a while to afford CSC, if you don't purchase with cash. Again, not exactly a user problem; users just went with the flow and demand. I'd think that, alone, should be bringing in money for Subeta because someone has to buy the CSC fr people to buy it with sP. The same people are buying CWs, no? New users are coming in and they should be able to buy, no? However, now, there is a decline. For new users, I'm sure a lot of it is not even knowing about CWs and which ones are out there. Users who know, can look through their wardrobe, the forums, etc, and see, newer users won't know to do that. However, I'm sure people will disagree with my "silly" reasoning because I'm silly and know nothing because I don't directly sell CWs and they are free to. Won't help CWs be sold more, though.



    Also, the price of making a CW is set by the site. Why exactly is it that price? Could it not be lowered? If not, why? It's just like any of the other "pixels"/art we have on the site. Is it just for the privilege of having a site item? You don't want people making a million of them and flooding the market? You want it to be an eilte and special thing? If this is the case, well, it is elite and special, so much so, there is a waning in interest because only the elite and special can afford them. As for "everyone can't have every item", most of us all know that because it's been said ad nauseam every time a complaint about an item/items comes up. We knew that about CWs pretty early on. If you couldn't get a slot or on a private list, you were out of luck. Most people got over it and moved on. I mean, I'd love to have all the diamonds from Cartier, but I can't afford them and don't worry about them, so I don't buy. I imagine it's like that for most things, even art. Again, if you can't afford something or it's an exclusive list, who is going to spend their time focusing on it? The people who could get, got and the others didn't. Subeta added the feature of being able to purchase pawned CWs from the pawn shop, not the users, so that is a Subeta-created problem that people got used to it and now it's being taken away. People would complain and act pretty hostile about things being taken away, I'd think.
    20
    Ciannwn
    I wouldn't mind using Trades to browse for CWs if we had an option to only view CW trades. I never use Trades because there are always pages and pages of stuff that people ought to be selling in their shops. This is even worse at special events where there will be lot after lot of carveable pumpkins or whatever.



    Having said that, I've more or less given up with CWs now because of the prices. 700 CSC can get me several pieces from a Delish set so I'd rather buy those.
    9
    Bright_Shadow
    All I can say is that I'm glad I never got into CW's
    4
    Inknote
    Well I'm...../sigh

    Ok, nah, I'm upset. I really really am. But I also understand why this is happening and I would rather it work out for the peeps making the content. I know that this benefits CW artists and commissioners. And that's a good thing. So I'm kinda forcing myself to be down with this.

    But it sort of fuckin suuuuuuuuuuuuucks too. I mean dude we're not made of CSC and with the sP price of it only ever rising anymore it's goddamn impossible to get a cw when you can't spend dem dolla bills unless you're very lucky or have very nice friends/anons (which I guess counts as lucky! XD).

    Listen, maybe I'd feel better about all of this if I knew what y'all meant by "other methods" because for as far as I know, these methods may not have ANYTHING to do the needs the pawn shop is meeting for us poor mofos. Cus it's all about the $$, man.





    Quote:
    @Scorpio

    Oh please please! R200 user shops that we can set any prices on for those spare CWs we are looking to part with.

    Make them show up on Shop Search. Anyone could see them being sold.


    THIS IS THE BEST IDEA???? Can we have this please? This is great. It'd be a beautiful way to get all of the cws out of the trades, too. I used to spend time browsing the new trades back in the day but now it's pointless because it's all cws. R200 shops (where you can sell your copy of a cw - meaning you are not the original submitter and are looking to sell the single copy you have purchased) would clear that out like hot sauce does a stuffy nose. It could basically be a more pleasant and organized r200 forum! it'd be so nice I'm crying just thinking about it.





    I also agree that the CW shops need to be easier to browse at leisure like the pawn shop was, rather than something like shop search where you need to be looking for something in particular already. Give us a way to window shop, basically XD - and NOT like just using the wardrobe. Because that is just. Not made for shopping. You can end up getting lucky and finding something you wanna buy there, but there are *so many* items. Many, if not most of which are not actually for sale. Whatever new thing we get, if it's gunna help us browse for new items (which I know many use the pawn shop for, to go find something new to pick up), they need to be items that are, you know, actually for sale. Lmao.



    A real shame about losing the pawn shop is someone tossing in those rare items on a fluke that people just aren't selling anymore. Plus it's easier to check the pawn shop for new items once a day and see what's popped in recently than run through those messy forums. I'm part of the BuySellTrade ping group which is handy but it could be so much better.
    14
    Poptart
    I'm disappointed by this decision. Since I don't regularly buy with RL $, it takes longer to save up CSC and I often take advantage of maximizing the value of it by buying from the pawn shop. I very very rarely will spend for full slot and that isn't going to change just because the pawn shop is no longer an option. $7 for a virtual item is insane, heck, I criticize myself for spending half that. And I doubt Subeta is going to lower it that much if any since I also see comments about items retaining value (WHY????).



    Also, I saw that it will be opened for special occasions but since I live in a non-US time zone, I already regularly miss out on the beginning of events meaning I will most likely (again) miss out on the cutest items that will have been stored while closed.



    Meh, again, disappointed... will wait and see what happens though. I'd like to think it is a majority and not just a small fraction of the community that wants this but from comments, it doesn't feel that way.
    4
    what
    i like lists. here is list and some suggestions and notes i made



    reasons why an item is unpopular:



    - item art sucks, or style isn't to buyers' liking anymore = less interest, value it at lower price point

    - item is rehash of another item = less interest, value it at lower price point

    yeah it sucks that commissioners spend so much, but if i don't like the item that much...i don't like the item that much lol. putting the pawn shop down is not gonna solve that.



    reason why item is in pawn:

    - couldn't find someone to buy item from them for quick $$ because

    ---trades and r200+CW forums are too much effort to comb through => fix forum search. filter trade center for cws

    ---a person who may be interested in item doesn't even know it exists => cw directory (which keith has mentioned, please make it happen, also note the submitter and/or artist if possible??? thanks)

    --- no one buys bc item falls within one or both "unpopular" categories => can't fix that



    why people buy from pawn:

    - cheaper (sometimes) => no decrease in the pawn shop price over time?

    - didn't know the item existed before => make it easier for outsider to discover cw somewhere else

    - ez pz wishlist search => make the feature available in other places too. like trade center or smth.



    overall: until there are better features for people to discover cws that they want, pawn shop is the place to go. until someone thinks your item is worth the amount of money you submit it for, they will not buy it
    25
    Taters
    At first I was thinking 'aww but I catch good things sometimes' but really, all I use it for is selling items that no one will buy because they are already in the pawn, when I just wanted slot price or what I paid for it.



    I think this will be a good thing in terms of helping the market get back to where it was. Cws have pretty much become hard enough to sell for what you paid that its not even worth it, which leads users like me to not even buy them. Its money out the window. Unlike when cw was first started and everyone jacked prices up because of greed. Its the total opposite. No one wants to pay more than 400csc for anything, even if it was a one batch. Its gotten ridic.



    I love that we can still sell to the pawn. But not having to look before selling a cw I paid over 700csc for and finding it in the pawn for less than 500csc will be amazing. They will become successful again in trading, and hopefully be worth some value other than a quick way to get 250csc at the pawn.



    Its not like they will be deleted. Just held on to for subeta to use differently.



    So for now, I am on board with this. I hope it helps creators actually fill slots, as well as make cw shops more profitable due to no pawn being there on the side with the same items. Plus it will make csc worth it again to purchase. And maybe in the end the stuff keith is working on with cw creators will mean a general price drop so batches dont sit around not being filled anymore.



    Win win for us all I think.
    7
    mimete
    why not just have a set price for each type of cw in the pawn shop and get rid of the thing where the price decreases the longer it's been in there. you'd still be able to get it at a discount but it wouldn't lower any further than the initial pawn shop price. i'd prefer that to getting rid of it entirely.
    6
    Pac
    Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo?

    Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
    3
    Julie
    Collects all the two cents here. Goes off to buy CWs.

    :smile:
    13
    Shou
    I'm all for changes if it's going to please all parties in the end and not just one.

    Other than that, you can't really form an opinion on this rn without even knowing how it all might turn out. Personally, I'm quite curious about this change and I'm positive it's a good one for all of us once it's due.
    2
    Keith
    Reminder that you have almost an entire month to get the items you want from the pawn shop (including ones that are added between now and then!) and also that the items aren't vanishing, we're putting them in a top secret vault to pull out during sales or other events in the future.



    Also that we're taking all of this feedback very seriously and working to create a middle ground where custom wearables are cheaper for users, cheaper for creators, and easier to get on the site. There is a fine line in walking around the fact that now more than 20,000 items on the site are custom wearables and you will not be able to get every single one. Someone said in an earlier comment that the point of a game should be working toward getting things that you want - and I think that is mostly true. However, in any game there are items that are downright impossible to get. Every game has these items, and it is just working out that Subeta will have a couple more of them.



    Beyond that, the things that we're working on for 2017 are almost entirely not focused on the avatar outside of being part of a larger system. We're working on new ways to interact with Subeta, build item, etc, that will hopefully fill a lot of the gaps in items that you want :)
    16
    Reaper
    Oh wow....this is a hot mess of complaints.



    I'm gonna say here what I said elsewhere - the pawn shop is hurting creators and releasers. I'm sorry to everyone who's sad that they can't wait 3+ months after something goes into pawn to buy it for 300 csc, but that thing cost me (as a non-artist releaser) in the neighborhood of $50+ to get on site more than likely.



    For those of you complaining about initial slot pricing - WE DO NOT LIKE IT EITHER! We're trying to come up with solutions in discussion with Keith and staff that will not negatively impact the site, but will afford more dynamic submission pricing (and hopefully smaller initial batches) so that we can get things on the site more cheaply (which means cheaper slots for everyone, yay!). But there's not a lot we can do when just commissioning an item already puts us somewhere around $30 down (and this is no criticism to artists - y'all deserve to be paid fairly for your work). Now then, I have an item that has to go in the 5k submission category, that means in order for me to not pay a single csc to submit myself and keep my cost solely at the $30 I spent already, the item has to be submitted at 625 csc per slot and has to fill 8 slots that are not me or my artist. And that isn't to make a profit or even break even, that's just to not have to spend more. If I want to break even on a 2 batch item in that same category, I'd have to price every slot at roughly 723 csc. TO BREAK EVEN. This does not get me any 'profit' (also, really, I dunno who is making a profit in this market anymore at all tbh - most of us are losing with every submission, sometimes quite a lot).



    I'm not here to argue about entitlement or privates or whatever silly reason someone has to blame the slow decline of the market - the biggest factors are the cost and the lack of people willing to slot. Yes, some items are niche. Yes, some items are similar to others. But I have had to cover slots and spend even more out of pocket just to get something on site only to watch the remaining few copies that went into my CW shop disappear within minutes. That's not because people don't want them, it's because people think "I'll get it from their shop later" or "I'll get it from Pawn later" or even "I don't particularly like them so I don't want to slot". I have literally nobody blocked, so it's not like people can't come and claim a slot on it if they want it. But they don't want to help get it on site because they can snatch it up later, which means that instead of actually being able to release things, I have to scrimp and save and sell off my collection in order to submit. And part of that is the submission cost eating into my pricing and forcing me to put things higher than I would like, but not all of it.
    14
    Amichai
    This is really disappointing, honestly. Like many other Subeta users I'm sure, I don't have a lot of spare change IRL, but I like to scrape together what I can to support Subeta because it's a great community and I want it to keep going. I can only afford to spend maybe $10 every couple of months (sometimes more because I have no self-control lol), so naturally I want to maximize what I can buy with that csc. The wardrobe is also the main draw of Subeta for me; I make several HAs a day and I love seeing all the beautiful items the site comes out with.



    However, as someone in this situation, the CW market, and therefore the HA community, is incredibly alienating. I'm so sick of seeing a beautiful item on someone's HA, asking them what it is, and realizing it's an expensive CW I could never afford unless it showed up in the pawn shop. This is especially true of CWs that make up for noticeable shortfalls in site items, like full-length dresses, large wings, and especially makeup and body texturing items (because let's face it, the HA base's skin is super flat and plastic and really sticks out without layering things over it). I feel like, since I can't afford full-price CWs, the pawn shop is the only way I can keep up with the Subeta HA community, which is relying more and more on CWs. Removing it cuts me and others who can't afford CWs off completely from a huge part of the site, and for me, one of the main draws. This is especially frustrating because it seems like a lot of the pawn shop's problems could be fixed just by clearing it more regularly.



    @Keith You're saying this is the first step in an overhaul of the CW system; I think that's incredibly important but I also think this is a pretty bad first step. Why not keep the pawn shop until it's no longer needed, like you did with the cults? This and other changes (like the donation presents only having five items) seem to have been made in an effort to maximize profits for Subeta— which I totally respect, as it's probably hella expensive to run a site like this. Thanks for giving us Subeta and CWs in the first place. Still, I'm pretty disappointed that the first step in a system (hopefully) meant to make CWs more accessible is to make them all but completely inaccessible for a lot of people. It seems like just reforming the pawn shop or even delaying closing it until other changes have been made would be better.



    Is there anything users can do to support Subeta when we can't necessarily do so financially? I try to spread the word when I can; is there anything else we can do that will hopefully make changes like this unnecessary?
    21
    lovecraft
    I have so many thoughts about this but I don't want to get into the drama of it.
    5
    Doe
    I'll put my two cents in, even if it isn't wanted. And, maybe, a reason why CWs have lowered in interest.



    I remember when CWs came out and it was wonderful. Cool. Yeah, you had to be there for batches (some were unlimited, others were 2-4 batches, but it was fair as it could be for people who did not want a million of their CWs around) and I liked that. Even if I missed out, I knew I had my fair chance and there might be another one around the block. Then, CW makers started doing the "friend only/exclusive" (which is within their rights, but it does keep many from wanting a CW, especially if the artist does it with every single release, which I saw some people doing and a reason I stopped buying because if I'm not a friend or in a certain group, why bother with that artist's CWs anymore?) or auctions. Where they'd make a batch, most would go to friends and then they'd sell one or two for crazy prices. Like, over the price it takes to get a CW made. For ONE CW! It went from being a fun thing where users could have some items on the site and make a bit of CSC or money or whatever to I just want to see how much I can get for this. I stopped then. Not because I didn't have the money, but because why am I paying so much for a CW, especially when there were people still doing it the old way? Plus, it's not fun, anymore. It became like this exclusive club and only certain people could get in. I DO NOT blame CW makers/artists for going the auction route (though I would feel bad when they do the auction, where someone paid a LOT, then have a release of the item or auction another, when they said they wouldn't), because there's way more money in it, but you also run away people who are not going to pay an astronomical price for an item, no matter how gorgeous the item is.



    When the pawn shop started making CWs available and you'd, sometimes, see those "auction" pieces, it was wonderful. That winner didn't want the piece anymore or they wanted CSC for another piece and, now, it was available for someone else. That was at the discretion of the person who paid quite a bit for it, not the CW maker, even if it was their art; they sold it, so yeah. Then, when CW makers realized people were doing that, they told people not to pawn it, which is kind of silly because, once it's in someone's possession, it's their business what they do with it. You still got paid for your item/work. Are you just upset that someone, paid for it again, but got it cheaper than, say, 3k CSC? Do they think someone sold it because it was ugly or something? I really don't get being upset because someone sold your item. It's better than deleting it or letting it rot in their wardrobe or vault and it's back in circulation. Of course, if you sold it, anyway, you'd, sometimes, be black listed and some wouldn't sell you CWs because you might pawn it. To me, if there is less interest in CWs, there is a big chance this is a reason. It was, for me. While I appreciate the beautiful art people make and I will pay a REASONABLE price for it, I'm not interested in extremely overpriced (in my opinion, mind you) CWs or being told what I can and can't do with an item that is, technically, mine or be passed over when others make a CW I want because I displeased a certain CW maker. I rarely pawn any CWs because I don't buy things I do not want, but there were a few that I found I couldn't use anymore, so they got pawned. It wasn't like I thought the item was ugly or just wanted CSC for it.



    Whenever users are in charge of things, some get kind of "power hungry", which we saw, and here we go, now the pawn shop isn't even going to have them available, anymore, to try and make the CW market more profitable? I do not think this is going to renew interest in CWs if that same reason (being expensive or incredibly exclusive) is going to exist. Who wants to participate in a system where they, most likely, can't get anything? Plus, you can only make so many variations of something before people get bored of the item. Yes, life isn't fair, but that goes both ways. If you want your CWs to go for a certain price, well, not everyone is going to be willing or able to buy. So, if your profits are down because of that, either make it fair or deal with it.
    36
    odduckOasis
    I think the only thing that made me scratch my head, was the fact that less than a month ago they stated they were clearing out the 6+ month older cws out of the pawn shop, but would keep them for special occassions, and now they're closing the shop altogether. I was like mkay... just seemed funny to do that and then this so soon after, but I'm going to assume it's because at the time of the clearing, they didn't really know that they were going to be closing the shop. lol.



    I've read most of the comments (honestly I couldn't read them all, too much and my brain is getting fried lol), but I don't mind this idea at all. It's actually quite interesting. I know a lot of the complaints from users is how expensive csc has gotten to purchse via sP. It didn't used to cost that much. In the beginning of cws, when ppl were able to sell a lot, people that couldn't afford to by csc with real money, bought it through user shops with their sP and so they were still able to buy cws (though perhaps not quite as often). I remembered when the pawn shop was first implemented and a lot of users (mostly us sellers) really disliked the idea- but it was implemented anyways. I think it was a way to hope that people that were complaining about not being able to obtain a cw, could get one- but in the end, it destroyed the subeta economy as a whole.



    Suddenly, prices for cws in general went up- and that's not because artists were charging more (understand, the ones that charge more do so because they're in demand & not because of the price of cws for the general users)- but the prices went up, batches went down to retain resale value and the r200 selling forum was less frequented because of the pawn shop. It was fast, convenient and simply made it easier on the general buyer to get csc fast so they could slot on a new exciting item they wanted.



    I have seen numerous times, a user buy a cws on the impulse- and sell it or pawn it the very next day because it 'didn't work'. As a seller, that hurts our bottom line- so we tighten our batches to discourage people just willy-nilly tossing the item aside. Most people who pawn items in the real world have usually gotten more than one days use out of them and so it's understandable why the value has gone down- but the difference is, that in the real world, most people prefer to buy new, as opposed to used because sometimes the used stuff doesn't work as well (not all the time of course). But in cw-land, the cw's never look 'used' only older art is old... but the value still has gone down for one reason or another and the only person that benefits from the pawn shop is the future buyer- who can get an item at a discount- but all before that get burned.



    Also, remember, it's said that this is the first step. More is to come and there's an entire month to get what you want until it's no longer purchasable. I do like they're leaving it open for selling for those that still want to make some quick csc. Curious as to what sort of events will be used/done to reopen for selling tho... lol.



    Also- @Mayonaka Just so you know, that once a cw is submitted to subeta, they own the rights to it already- so them doing this isn't them suddenly taking control- they've always had it because it's now become property of "Agoge, Inc." Just so you're aware (it's in the T&C of cws). ^.^



    TL;DR

    Meh, whatever, I didn't use it that much anyways- and if it fixes the economy- I'm all for it! Tired of struggling to sell cws.... 8I
    5
    Sora
    Ahh such a shame, I wish I could afford more of them, I see a lot of nice ones. :(
    1
    Draco
    Well this sucks. I pretty much only buy cws from the pawn shop anymore. Oh well, there's no like no reason for to spend real money on here now.
    4
    sentinel
    @Keith

    i'm going to wishlist every cw on site and then search by wishlist





    but no seriously, a database like this would be super cool!!
    7
    Curbstomped
    @Cogito , I'd love to see a very brief re-opening for a cool site event...Maybe a mysterious little resale shop on the outskirts of Peka-boo 2.0 (A PERSON CAN DREAM OKAY), it just sounds so cute. I guess I'm ok with seeing it go for the time being, though!
    1
    Keith
    @sentinel I imagine most users would filter by ones actually in cw shops / user shops which would make that much lower
    0
    Cogito
    Keith, thanks for the answer. I can see that being very helpful when searching during gift-buy sessions (not having to search for them one by one), so I really hope the friend's wishlist or even specific users CW wishlist option makes it (sometimes I buy for random people I find around the site).



    @Curbstomped That's what I took away from reading that, that it might be open during Black Friday or perhaps some event that happens that maybe makes a tie-in to CW type items. (I can't think of one, but I don't put anything past the creative team here, especially with the cool random summer events that take place). A small window when perhaps we could buy what people had pawned over the year, probably depending on how the market was doing at the time.
    0
    sentinel
    "Viewing 1 - 25 of 20873"

    damn keith ur ambitious that's a lot of cws
    2
    Curbstomped
    Aww, I loved the CW pawn shop...dang. The only thing I have a question on is, "unless we open the page for a special event"...huh? Maybe I'm missing something kinda vital, but that seems weird to me. Would the event be like, a yearly, "dump all your old stuff and see if someone will buy it" day? Or a black Friday type deal consisting of things people have pawned over the year? (This sounds a tad catty, but I don't mean it like that, I promise! I'm actually curious and a bit confused as to what would reopen it...reopening it for black Friday every year could be really cool!)
    2
    Keith
    @Cogito Right now I want to build it up so that there is a central custom wearable page, which has a list of ALL custom wearables on the site. You can drill that down to ones that are in custom wearable shops, user shops, trades, on your wishlist, and maybe if we're able to, ones that are on friends wishlists.
    7
    Cogito
    and by "no one wants" I mean the seller no longer wanted. I'm tried. :P
    0
    Riashire
    *Slow golf clap.* Should totally be fun searching the r200 forums for older items I missed and really want. Wishing I hadn't gotten into CWs. I avoided them for years.
    11
    Cogito
    I have to say I am curious to see what these "other methods of selling directly to users" are, considering we have the forums for new batches, forums for CWs no one wants, trades and user-run CW shops. What the heck is missing other than a 'dump it here and hope you guys want some of this crap' later place? Maybe some combination wishlist/fulfillment center? You plug in the CWs you want and then people go to sell the ones they don't want and if someone is looking for that item, they get a message or something of what someone is selling it for, if there is no desire, the user can just pawn it out of existence? As I said, definitely curious if anything actually does wind up existing other than the options there are already.
    3
    Springfairy556
    Like someone else asked,does this mean we won't be able to purchase with CSC anymore? That's my concern.
    1
    Hylian
    @Galaxia

    I think they fixed it so you can't pawn ones you won or certain ones. I won one from an event and kept it for a while but wanted something else. I looked to pawn it but was not able to.
    0
    Seoni
    I have mixed feelings about this. Of course, seeing CW no longer "devalued" is always a good thing. But at the same time, I love finding a deal in the Pawn Shop.
    3
    Springfairy556
    Why? :( I hope your not planning on getting rid of CW completely or only available for certain events.
    0
    Christopher
    Also "Use the r200 forums" isn't a good suggestion when we aint had a functional forum search in 87 years.
    11
    EmilyMae
    I am not really sure what is going on or why it is happening, but I will just throw my 2 cents in anyway.

    I have a CW shop and I have had a few items created for me to sell in it. I have never bothered with making a board to create batches because I never really understood how to do it and it just seemed confusing. I just submit them directly to my shop. All of the items I have had released on site were basically just because I wanted to wear them myself. I never figured I would make a profit, or even thought about "breaking even". I just wanted to be able to "design" my own clothes for my HA :D. If anyone else bought one of my dresses, I was just thrilled that someone else liked something that I loved. I have always looked at like if someone bought a dress from me and then sold it in the pawn shop it would give someone else a chance to have that dress at a price that they could afford. Then someone else could have a dress that they like. I am always so happy to see my dresses posted around on the forums and see how creative people can be with them :heart: it always makes me happy! I have had a few items that I just had made for a friend of mine because she loves to cosplay a character and these items were made special for her. Those are the only items that were not available in my shop for anyone to buy.

    I am going to miss the pawn shop because it was a great way for everyone to have a chance at items that could not be found anywhere else for whatever reason. A lot of times I could find items in there that I didn't even know existed. I love CWs, but I am not willing to scour the boards looking for items and then hope that someone will sell me an item. I don't have to go into the mall and ask them to sell me a sweater and then have to agree to a bunch of rules or be told that I am not a friend or member of a certain ping group. The very few I have bought from the boards thankfully did not do that (or they just asked not to resell or pawn). I just don't want it to get like that again. Bottom line is now I feel like I should just delete my mile long CW wishlist because I really don't see how I can get even half of the items on there if I can only use the pawn shop a few (2,3,4?) times a year.

    Sorry for rambling for so long.
    16
    Britney
    @Galaxia aw really, I wouldn't pawn nothing back ;P I love cw oh but I was guilty a few times though of like having to pawn ;( its so sad especially when you really love the item but you really want the other item. Oh yeah and I am always kicking myself because you only get 300 csc back or 200 csc for an item you payed 600-700 csc for.
    0
    TaterSalad
    I'm a little disappointed as I visit the CW pawn shop daily, multiple times, not only for WL items but to see if there was something I had never seen before that I would like to buy. I have purchased many CWs from the pawn shop, mostly because I rarely get in on a thread in time to get one so I have to wait til it sells later, and sometimes it never does(so many top hats I need).

    But, that being said, I look forward to seeing what the replacement for it is so that we can still buy desired CWs, even at regular price.

    Because don't get me wrong, I didn't shop the Pawn Shop only to get CWs cheap, I shopped there because I didn't get the CW initially for whatever reason and the pawn shop was my 2nd chance. I would gladly pay regular price if only there were enough of the ones I wanted and so many weren't private with never a chance to get one. :(

    Maybe the new way will make it easier to get a CW when it's released... I can hope anyway.
    10
    Galaxia
    @Britney



    They've given CWs out of the Pawn Shop away before, for raffles. Many people mentioned they pawned them right back.
    2
    Christopher
    Maybe the reason CW makers can't keep a value on their CWs is a fault of the production market (hey 600 csc unlimited batch items!) and not the secondhand market?

    There's only so many pink ponytail wigs you can make before "Do I pay 600 for this new one from an unlimited batch usershop or 300 for this 'old' but incredibly similar wig".



    Like I get it that CWs aren't bringing in the big bucks anymore but WOW this is basically just a way to pseudo delete CWs so that people wanting a new one have to buy them from the users CW shop.
    13
    Britney
    they should have a massive cw pawn shop giveaway like they did free shop *DREAMING* mwahaha yas I love dreaming big LOL
    3
    flamboyantCuttlefish
    @Maladjusted_Jester I'm just tired of people making comments about digital art being just pixels, as if it doesn't take as much time and effort as any physical medium. I /am/ sorry if my comment came across as outright mean -- I was aiming more for "sarcastic and snarky" than mean.



    And plenty of people buy real-life art that they aren't constantly appreciating. Heck, that's how real-life clothes and jewelry typically work. Nobody stares at a pair of earrings for hours on end either, yet they still bought them for when they want to wear them.
    5
    Maladjusted_Jester
    Fine, damn it, i apologize for using the word pixels. i'm done, okay?



    @Ursa The description fit the situation and i thought maybe it would give you a laugh and make you feel better. I know how bad I feel when i do things like that and i don''t like others upset.
    1
    Rogue
    Quote By poppet:
    Catering to the desires of the few over the many? Money talks!



    A good is only worth what a buyer is willing to spend.


    ^This. Exactly.
    11
    Kellijuana
    Sad days! I love many cws I'm just rarely able to justify paying $7 for one pixel picture that will be mostly lost in the thousands of other pretty pictures in my wardrobe. It has to be something really unique for me to want to slot on something so the pawn shop, and especially sales in that pawn shop, are when I really consider buying cws most. Regular CS items are more and more often just as fun as CWs these days and come at a third the price. While I can't speak for everyone, that's why I don't buy many CWs and why I'll be sad to see the pawn shop mostly closing down. It was the one chance for people who don't spend as much to get a deal they could stomach. I suppose this will make the 24hrpawn group even more important! This would have been good to know during that last sale! I was on the fence about several and just took too long to decide. I bet many more cws would have been bought up out of there with people knowing they wouldn't be able to buy them for much longer!
    2
    Maladjusted_Jester
    @flamboyantCuttlefish

    that seemed harsh. and no, you can't do much with it. most of the time you can't even see it. very few people wear a single wardrobe item constantly, and even when you do it's not like you have the picture in view for hours at a time. Why buy art if you aren't able to enjoy it? maybe i'm not great at expressing my thoughts properly but yeah, your comment just seemed really mean.
    4
    Zii
    I'm having trouble understanding what this means exactly?



    Will we never be able to purchase CW with CSC anymore?
    0
    NancyBlack
    I understand people who don't personally like or want CWs, but it makes me sad to see them acting like wanting CWs at all is stupid. I've only spent $5 on Subeta because I don't have a ton of money, but I still have over 30 CWs in my wardrobe just from saving up SP. I'm not stupid, I just have different priorities than you.
    3
    Ursa
    You have received Angelic Soap from Maladjusted_Jester





    BLESS THIS HEAVENLY SOAP THAT HAS BEEN BESTOWED UPON ME

    but alas

    it is of pixels and extensions that cannot be brought into the real world



    i must resort to dish soap and shampoo for today
    5
    Pika
    @Evanesce



    :)



    There is a "replacement" system in place - the r200 forums and trades are both ways to trade csc and CWs. It's just not as easy or condensed as the pawn shop, is all. Staff realize this and that's probably why the pawn shop isn't closing until Feb! ~ There has been so much discussion between creators / releasers / site staff on the slowly dying CW market that I'm sure this is just the first preparatory step towards a re-vamp of the CW economy.



    The fact that people cannot purchase whenever in the future will likely give a higher incentive for them to browse r200 / trades more often, meaning sellers will be able to get faster interest and sales on CWs they no longer want. And you're right that keeping the system around may not be the absolute best thing to do, but if the whole thing were gotten rid of, the storm in here would be multiplied by 1000.



    And if you ever wanted to get into CWs, there are many many resources in the forums as well as lots of friendly artists / releasers who are always more than willing to answer any question. (Feel free to sMail me any time!!!) That uncertainty is exactly what is stagnating the market and really killing a lot of the creativity that drives the CWs on site.
    3
    Cogito
    I think there are other things to factor in one this whole interest thing and how things went from 3-5 batches easily down to sometimes 1 batch is hard pressed. 1. There just isn't going to be people as interested as they were as the beginning because at the beginning, it was new. New things always garner more interest. Take a pet, it's new, everyone wants it and then as people get them, they waver. Which brings me to 2. Even if you don't pay attention to it as a whole. You have wigs that look damn similar to other wigs or shoes that look damn similar to other shoes, and so on and so forth, people don't need to spend CSC (real money) on something they already have an item of that's similar. I feel like the whole monthly sets for Delish are going this way now too. They seemed cool at first but besides the backgrounds and a few key different items, like the animals, there is just a lot of the same. 3. There is just flat out too much saturation. You have 10 colors of the same wig, if you like it, that's a lot of it to get. Time goes on, you don't use it, and others come out which are the new bigger badder thing (don't get me started on the trend items) and then suddenly you want that, but then guilt of your money you're spending takes over and you sell or pawn items to get new ones. Plus 4 or whatever number I'm on, if you're going to try to keep track of a lot of things, something somewhere has got to give. We've been having items that double as a battle challenger and some other item. I've noticed a lot of things like stickers and food are tending to be Cash Shop items too now. I just feel like we use to have a lot more regular-shop releases than we have had lately. (Maybe that's an unfair assessment and if so, you can statistic me into submission.) That said, most people can't buy it all, so they're going to have to choose what's more important, to keep working on that collection, intelligence pet, stat pet, wardrobe with items you can buy from the Cash Shop for 125-250 each that are still as gorgeous as what you'd find in the CWs or something else. At that point it seems more like the CW just heads to the land where you buy things more you feel like commissioning because they don't exist onsite already (and as time goes on that will be less and less) or they see something that fits a beloved pet's TC, with a random moment every now and then when you see something you just *have* to have. Now, I'm not counting those people who are like CW fanatics, I'm talking about the average user base. With all that said, this tends to fix one problem, and that's the fact that we feel a bit complacent because the Pawn Shop existed and we knew there was a pretty good chance to get most items later because for all of the above reasons, CWs wound up in the pawn shop. Other example would be the MKBs which I use to buy religiously and now I just don't even bother because I know whenever I need to I can just buy slots through the pet page, so meh, no worries. I think in the end it's just going to be an area regular users are kind of out of, and those that have some sort of income on Subeta (from art, CWs themselves, story writing, etc.) or just those with tons of funds to throw at this are going to dominate the market until it just falters pretty much all together.
    9
    stjarnor
    ...

    welp.



    i never really bought anything from that place but this is sad to hear.
    1
    Julie
    Off I go to see what's in the pawn shop. Toodles!
    1
    Maladjusted_Jester
    I did mean CW prices are too much not just to buy the item, but the cost to get them on-site. Especially since so many look so alike. (Also, why is the Bad-Word Filter no longer working? yes I have it enabled.)
    2
    Julie
    I'm thinking with the Pawn Shop closing, when you come across CWs in your wardrobe that you haven't used for awhile, when you go to sell it on the R200 boards, you might actually be able to sell it since there is no Pawn Shop to do business against. So that might be a good thing. You'll still get it at a discounted price and we get more than 250/300 CSC, so this could be a win/win.
    8
    poppet
    Catering to the desires of the few over the many? Money talks!



    A good is only worth what a buyer is willing to spend.
    23
    sakura
    @sikkykins they're not getting deleted sweetie :P

    just not buyable outside of designated times



    @Ursa do you have dish soap? that should work fine for now too :o
    0
    Masquerade
    It would be cool if we had some transparency on how many of our released CW items are currently in the pawn shop once you can't buy back from it anymore.
    1
    rhino_loupe
    I never understood why anyone sold CWs to the pawn shop at a guaranteed loss in the first place. But there's now such a glut of samey CWs (the endless indistinguishable wigs...) that it's no wonder they haven't retained their value.
    12
    Evanesce
    @Pika

    Thanks for your response, I actually do know that and support an improvement! I mean why now instead of when the problem was first realized, and why now instead of when a replacement system is ready? They're more rhetorical questions than actual questions to a choice already decided that doesn't make sense to me. People can still sell but can only buy when the staff says so, making it into 'a dump'? It just doesn't make sense to keep around from my perspective, that of a former admin (not on here) who sees it as a player motivation and retention issue, as well a total drain on the resources of staff. It creates a problem instead of solving one and comments from staff about the details should be in the news post, not in the sb and news. It's still the CSC generator that caused problems for the site, not just the artists. I really wanted to make CWs but the uncertainly of the market makes me wary. I'm an adoptable maker and my market is $3-$5 dollars per original designs.



    I've been impressed with communication during my return but on this I'm disappointed in the vagueness. I do see those dates in the 'Welcomes' forum and how far apart they are. Everyone I talk to is a long time player and the only newbie I know? I brought here less than a month ago. I used to meet newbies all the time. All these leftover pieces are far more of an issue new players see than committed users. The amount of confusion I've had to deal with from my partner - who's played complicated strategy games for years - is really shocking. We have to stop halfway doing things.
    2
    sikkykins
    Pffft xD sry, i reread again. Ansrewed my own question. Items aren't just gonna poof after selling to the shop. Super sleepy. =w=

    The cw pawn shop is what dipped my toes in the water to actually buying cws but I'm interested in seeing how this will affect the cw community. :D
    2
    Ursa
    @sakura oh no it was normal soap but like

    do i have to bathe with shampoo for today till i buy new soap

    :c
    0
    LtRipley
    I will buy from the pawn shop what I can until February 1st and then no more cw's for me, I guess I'll stick with the ones I have. I am not willing to pay the high prices they have reached. Between this, limited release and few batches...ykw just keep them to yourself
    18
    Picture
    Meh, the only way I ever purchased CWs was the pawn shop. I have never understood how to purchase them otherwise and I probably wouldn't anyways. The cost is too high for me. I guess this will not really affect me too much though.
    5
    flamboyantCuttlefish
    @Maladjusted_Jester Saying it's just "a handful of pixels" is like calling any real-life object "just a bunch of atoms." Good job, you discovered the base components of a thing. Not like it takes any skill or effort to put those component parts together in a way that is enjoyable. Not like anybody would ever pay real money for ANY digital art. If you can't touch it, it's not paying for, right?
    3
    sikkykins
    ...so let's say someone sells a cw to the new regulations cw pawn shop. Where does that item go? A POOF? Or is it still on site, but only accessible to whomever has to deal with that fun stuff (staff)? With older, 1 batch, but less copies on the site due to frozen users who had the items and them getting deleted with their accounts and other items in it, I hope they don't disappear forever! There's quite a few popular items I've seen on most users' wls and some of the stuff people pawn... you rub your eyes and glance again because I think the ones who put them there be cray ;u;



    On the other hand, I've never released anything, so I don't know the struggles of releasing, but a couple friends do and if they can benefit from this, then I'm very happy that this helps them! :) I guess my only disdain from this is if the sold to pawn shop cws were gone completely after pawing never to be seen again. I'm all for thinking up an alternative that still helps both sides of it as much as possible! :o
    0
    Galaxia
    @sakura



    If it was a wash in terms of influencing cost of batches, though, it also had a net benefit of letting people have access to items with...trying to find the word...less opaque system of gate-keeping? As solutions go, I think it lacks symmetry on the harm versus help and would rather see people judge the market better and react accordingly, as opposed to reducing options.
    0
    Stiles
    @Beldam I missed one of the Backdrop's I wanted, too. Hopefully (no offense to those that originally created the CW's) we can get them there before the shop closes, or maybe at a price close to what it was in there. Good luck!
    0
    Maladjusted_Jester
    Considering buying a CW is essentially spending real money for a handful of pixels, I think the prices are already pretty ridiculous

    That said - buying CWs is the only reason I buy CSC in the first place, and the pawn shop selling them for a price I can somewhat justify spending real money on them was a good thing for me. I have no intention of paying 600+ CSC for ANY CW. I would rather not buy them at all. There are better things to spend the money on. paying bills, maybe...
    17
    sakura
    @Galaxia the pawn shop isn't the only thing to blame but it wasn't helping either

    there's always tons of reasons why things turn sour and the pawn shop is i think the easiest to address out of the gate with the staff's efforts to revitalize the community
    1
    Jai
    That's fine, but if you get rid of the CW pawn shop, MAKE THE CW SHOP EASIER TO BROWSE. Right now, it's a nightmare. I never know what is for sale by item or by price. If I'm not following a shop, I will never know something is for sale that I might want to buy. THAT is why I use the CW pawn shop.



    So, to reiterate...MAKE THE CW SHOP EASIER TO BROWSE.
    6
    Buttercream
    I've purchased from the Pawn Shop just a few items but as someone who looks primarily for potential TC items this change is not a popular one. I am more bothered that there is going to be SOMETHING to help with this situation...someday? Why on earth does this game continue to make this mistake? Nothing in place but getting rid of a feature makes no sense to me :/
    6
    Beldam
    Thank you for the heads up! Bought a wig I had my eye on for awhile now...(Thanks for the purchase! Here is your Noxious Tainted Sidecut! ) I just wish I sprang into action quicker last time you made a cw pawn shop announcement and grabbed
    :( all gone -tear. It's so close to my normal hair in rl. Hopefully someone will make more or sell me theirs (oh and I don't understand all the rage. I buy CSC from shops-never spend rl $$)
    1
    sakura
    @Ursa oh god that sucks :( was it a fancy soap?
    0
    Iridescent
    Well, that's not cool.
    1
    Galaxia
    @Cathii



    I do spend to release, actually, so I understand some of it. I actually had three items not finish slotting recently, although one of those was I think due to people not realizing it existed until my deadline for submitting to user shop and the price increase thereof. I gave people the slot price, too, for invitations to the item, even though I'll need several more sales just to make the profit from the shop placement (that doesn't even cover the commission cost). It was just a risk I was willing to take.



    Some of it is the sheer number of items being released that fill each others' niches, maybe; if someone has so many wigs, that design (no matter how expensive) may just be part of a flooded market. And sometimes it's going to be that good, and that's usually the batch that's capped. The rest of the time, well, I still don't think it's the Pawn Shop that's to blame.
    2
    Warrior
    @Andie

    Something like that would literally KILL the CW market. If you essentially take away the control people have over their items, they're going to stop commissioning and releasing entirely.
    11
    Dr.Nena
    I bought nearly all my CW's via the pawn shop on splurges. I've bought like 2 from actual shops. So this makes me a little bit sad, but It will save me real life money, which is a silver lining.
    2
    Cathii
    @Paradise i personally have high hopes that if cws and economy in general can be stabilized again, releasers will once again have the possibility to slot 3+ batches per item, like it used to. That would be amazing!
    8
    Pika
    @Evanesce



    Hello ~



    A reasoning (not 100% sure it is the same reasoning for why it is being kept open) that was discussed among creators/releasers was that people want a way to quickly obtain CSC for their CWs for emergencies / whatever purposes when r200 cannot sell fast enough. The purchasing part was what was significantly harming the CW community and releasers, not selling.



    By retaining the selling part but not the purchasing, more users will likely try to sell through r200 / whatever new system is decided upon / trades rather than using the pawn shop since ALL PURCHASERS can't access the "dump" that has become the pawn shop.



    This puts selling back into the users' hands and quite honestly, should help get more CSC into sellers' hands. The pawn shop turns things around at a higher price than is given to the seller.
    5
    Paradise
    @Cathii

    I believe that it might be rare but those are the consistant experiences I have personally had with CWs and they have turned me off of them for good. I don't even mind the 700 CSC price, and would happily pay it upfront but I don't want to be in desperate ping-induced dogfights for items. It leaves me with a bad taste. However even if I bow out, I know a lot of users love it so I hope Subeta can fix the economy for them!
    5
    Cathii
    @Galaxia it's relative to a certain extent, but if you spend $60 on a cw design, do you want to take the risk that not even one batch fills, because everyone is scared it'll end up devalued in the pawn shop the next day?



    I'll admit that the news post was very vague as to the intent and purpose, but I'd say that there were valid reasons to see the pawn shop as a concern for people who actually spend a lot of money to introduce new cws!



    Closing it down alone won't necessarily change things around, you're right, but Keith said tht it was step one of a new system to make things better (:
    2
    Andie
    I would love to see the pawn shop stay open for selling to and buying from. I would love to see ALL cw's be UNLIMITED..no privates or friends only to buy. A limit on recolors...
    7
    Truth
    Oh...major bummer :( While I have only found ONE WL item in the pawn shop and I often buy directly from CW shops themselves....I browse the PS daily and often find things in there to purchase....I will definitely miss the discounted items :(
    0
    Ursa
    on an unrelated note, i dropped a new bar of soap into the toilet bowl and now im sad because i have to buy new soap.
    11
    Galaxia
    @Cathii



    That 'larger view' is missing out, again and again, with several people mentioning similar experiences. Keeping value is in some ways a very relative term. I admit that I probably have a vastly different perspective than you, but it's still a frustrated one that I'm not alone in.



    Keeping up with friends, I understand. Making things for friends, having an entire social circle and set-up and working with an economy, it's human. But it's going to leave some people out, and the Pawn Shop was some small method of redress. To have that gone isn't necessarily going to increase spending for users like me or PinkPetals or Paradise.
    4
    Turokai
    Oh nooooo! Major bummer. I can understand the reasoning from a CW maker's point of view. but as a buyer I'm going to sorely miss this feature.

    How will Subeata recoup the csc handed out to people who pawn their items tho' without buyers?
    1
    far
    Oh no ... I saw "private" and "entitled". Oh boi oh boi.

    Time to gtfo lmao.
    4
    VOLTAGE
    ALSO YOU THOUGHT I WAS DONE HAH YOU WON'T GET RID OF ME SO EASILY



    I just wanted to say another thing, people who release custom wearables aren't 'the big man' or 'the guys upstairs' or 'evil corporate entities'. We're not sitting cackling on our Scrooge Mcduck piles of gold. They're just people, normal users, who for some reason decide to spend the money in the 'hobbies and interests' box of their budget on subeta.

    I understand not many people want to drop upwards of $5 dollars on a virtual item, and that's totally understandable! Sometimes, it sounds crazy even to me (and I try not to think about just how much I've spent on these virtual items either haha)



    But, please try to see it from the POV of user whose hobbies include buying and releasing virtual clothes for some reason. Is it fair that they have to spend sometimes 10-20 dollars to release a single item? Only to have spare copies and very few people wanting to buy because everyone can just get it from the pawn shop at anytime at a slightly cheaper price. Wouldn't it feel like they were just throwing money into the void then?

    (Ha and I know you can simply say 'don't spend money on subeta' but these are the people who keep the site afloat yes?)
    15
    Evanesce
    Why now, with nothing ready to replace it? It's just like with the wardrobe: you removed a 'problem' that functioned and replaced it with a totally non-functional struggle which demotivated users to the point where many of my friends took hiatuses (a YEAR for me, until my decade long investment in a wardrobe was useable again) and that didn't work out in the end anyways. It's confusing. No one thinks it's the end of the world, but we can think it's a bad move. Yeah, I read all the posts and all they make me think is, "Yet again they make the most confusing move possible." For special events, really? That's... an even WORSE idea. It's just a big roadblock to progress. Just shut the whole thing down if you're going to do it. It's such a waste of resources to make it an 'event' shop. Jeez, we have WAY too many of those in the first place.



    Again, not angry, just confused. None of the explanations cover why you're not just shutting it down instead of presenting a replacement along with it. Replace things when you take them away! Ideas for replacements are NOT replacements.
    14
    Lirikai
    Huh. Okay. A reason would have been nice.



    Guess I'll be saving more of my RL money then.



    /spent way too much at the pawn shop, buying from the newest added list
    6
    Delirium
    forreal?

    >,>

    i have a lot of emotions, most of them are negative, so i'm going to keep my mouth shut until i process them...
    9
    Cathii
    @Galaxia you need to see the larger portrait of the cw scene i think!



    In very rare occasions, items will be very desirable with a small batch count - it means it keeps its value. Makes it inflated too sometimes, and that's the irritant of it, but you have to understand that people who usually submit items as 2-3-4 batches can't even fill one anymore: for the simple reason that user's reasoning is that it will be widely available and cheap 'and in the pawn shop tomorrow'. It isn't a false assumption either because it has happened so many times.



    So yes, sometimes it's frustrating but I'd say that for the most part, those 1-2 batches items are the ones that keep their value & dont end in the pawn shop either!
    4
    Pinkpetals
    I agree there where many times I wanted a slot and it is pages and pages, and privates. We as users got told we where "entitled" for even mailing about questions regarding a cw that is private, or not even getting an answer back. My friend (RIP) got told to butt off the thread cause it was for pinged people only. ;(
    6
    Ursa
    @Frenchi WHOOPS then i totally misunderstood your message xD youre right that sometimes the pawn can have nice, rare stuff in it! i'll miss that part about stalking the pawn tbh. but it also lessens mistakes that can happen for people with a few hundred cws and cant collect their thoughts on whats private or not and end up accidentally putting it in the wrong place, POTENTIALLY RUINING FRIENDSHIPS, RUINING LIVES AND LEADING TO CERTAIN DEATH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO /slapped
    2
    Genevra
    Well. That was interesting to read through. Something I didn't really know about, kinda wish I had, probably couldn't have afforded and now is going away. I guess I can see why some people are upset and some are glad. It seems like, from what I could glean from comments, that it is probably the right decision to close it. I think.
    2
    Cathii
    @Paradise pretty sure I know which wig you're talking about - and trust me, this is a very rare occurance. At the same time, if the releaser made 6 batches, it wouldn't have rettained attention. There is a delicate balance between supply and demand - much more so when it involves money of course.



    I totally understand your frustration because we all miss out on items we want (whether private or exclusive or simply rare to find). I hope this is the sort of issues that will be addressed. I can assure you that if we had the ability to consitently slot 3 batches on cws, we would. Because that means more profit for us, too.



    I think most people also underestimate just how much it costs to get a cw onsite if you aren't an artist. Users dont want to pay 5-7 for a cw, but releasers pay far more than that to have it made. If they can sell 4 batches, that'd be awesome for them. If they can't even make 1, it's really just unfair for them!
    9
    Frenchi
    @Ursa

    i mean, i'm not super passionate about it one way or the other. all i meant was that some people choose to sell to the pawn shop because they really really can't find a buyer, or they do find a buyer and either make a profit or break even. it's up to the individual whether or not it's worth it. i didn't say anything about "big-time-cw buyers" profiting, i just mentioned that people who release a lot of CWs are the ones who face the most challenge because of the pawn shop (less interest in slotting because people figure they can just buy something from the pawn shop later, even though the really popular items are the ones you'll be hard-pressed to find anywhere - and one thing i liked about the pawn shop was that incredibly rare lucky moment when you spot something that you actually really want but weren't around for slotting) and so this change seems intended to benefit them most - which it is, as stated in the CW creator subforum thread from which this idea stemmed.
    1
    Galaxia
    @Cathii



    I've seen at least one thread recently where someone capped 'because of interest' based on one ping group, and then as soon as they opened it up more there were literally ten more people wanting the item. Not to mention, that first batch would have made the move to selling from user shop free. It's this frustrating mix of circumstances all around.
    2
    Diprosopus
    let's be honest here, CWs suck. they're far too expensive whether you're making them or purchasing them. they're really not worth the hassle. when i look at how cheap custom items are on aywas, it makes subeta look insane.



    you can't even buy a CW item for SP because it'll probably cost you at least 50mil. i, personally, don't have that kind of money for one single item. i could more easily flesh out my collections and train my pet. i don't care about the pawn shop, honestly. but that's mostly because i can't even afford the cheaper stuff in there.
    12
    Hellbent
    Yikes.
    2
    Paradise
    @Cathii

    People in this news post have been saying that so I guess I am inclined to believe it is the case on the regular. But my experience with CWs was several years ago and the market was booming and this was happening. So I just avoided the whole thing. Fast forward to a month or so ago, I was on Subetalodge and in their newest item box was the PRETTIEST wig. It was a CW and I thought to myself, Oh I really shouldn't but I want it so much. So I subscribed to get recolors of the wig in hopes of trading for the original. Every single ping was a 1 batch (rarely on occasion a 2 batch) release. And every single ping there were pages and pages of users wanting the wig and being so disappointed every time that there were only like 6 slots after the releaser and creator got theirs. It was just sad when the releaser could have just made more the next recolor.
    11
    Paradise
    @Darkrai

    There may be be some items that are, I won't say there aren't because I don't know all the items on site. But I do know that staff makes a clear effort to put old/retired/unavailable items back in circulation for us. Is everyone going to finish their wardrobe or beanbag collection or plushie collection? Probably not. But it would be because that task takes a large amount of dedication and focus, not because the items literally aren't anywhere available on site. However, yes I know that CWs aren't going anywhere at this point, it is just unfortunate.



    As far as slots, I know they can't change it once they have said a certain amount. But often there are multiple recolors of an item so the popular of the item is clear each time and the releaser will still only do 1 batch for every recolor, when they could easily have filled 5 or 6.
    11
    Slowerthanzero
    @cpbmom Yeah I completely agree, I also don't even like to so much as recognize them as items on the site since they are so vastly unobtainable unless I want to spend gobs of real money on a few items, when I can spend that same amount for more articles of real life clothing or food and such. So I really don't even contemplate them for any reason, not TC, wardrobe, nothing. I think I only have one W in my wishlist but I'll probably end up removing it seeing as it will be far more impossible to obtain it than many other multi-million SP items that are also on my wishlist. At least those items, if I want them, I can work towards it with in-game effort, not having to crack open my wallet to get it. I do support Subeta, but I do so getting CSC for gold accounts or to get other cash shop items when there is a nice sale, but only on the official Subeta items there, never CW. There are some nice CWs, but none are worth the prices they demand.
    3
    Ramby
    @Darkria thanks hun I will check it out
    0
    Reykur
    OMG YES. If there's going to be R200 user shops that will be the most wonderful thing to replace the pawn shop. If items get less valuable that way it's exactly JUST because people will not pay more, but not because they get deflated over time by "force" (like in the pawn shop) and people can just sit and wait for that to happen.
    5
    Serena922003
    *disappointed*
    6
    Kota
    I liked the pawn shop.
    6
    Darkrai
    Something I just realized also: There's a ping group for items that you plan to pawn soon, so people can come and buy them for pawn price (which again, is less than they will pay if they buy from the pawn shop instead of from a user) and even then, items don't sell. Maybe not having access 24/7 to the items inside the pawn shop will help those things to actually sell. Like, hey, I mean it, this is really your last chance to get this item from me.
    7
    Serena922003
    0
    Galaxia
    @Andie



    That doesn't even include 'oh, you missed this slotting' or 'I'm interested in juuuust the right offer' kinds of things that make the forums a horrible experience. @Cathii mentioned it getting less rewarding; for me (and I am releasing CWs), the limited slots and trying to find the right bloody topic have left me burnt twice in the last two weeks because people don't want things 'ending up in the pawn shop' (even though it's bloody free to send something to user shop after it slots the first time), making the annoying part of custom wearables the forums and slots rather than the pawn. Some of us have more CSC than opportunity, and the pawn shop was a good avenue for that.
    4
    Cathii
    Quote By paradise:
    And then super popular CWs releasers will only ping to release 1 batch when they have 3 pages of users immediately after the ping wanting the item but they won't slot ever more.




    Aside from exceptions, this is far from true actually!



    So many items can't even be submitted because there arent 8 users willing to slot on them. It's the whole reason why there is 'devaluing' - not to the occasional pawn shop buyer but for those who spend a lot of money to put onsite items that are devalued so quickly. There used to be a time where cws could be slotted for 3-4-5 batches but that's a veeeery rare occasion nowadays. But the price is still the same, omg am I making sense im sorry if I dont ;_;
    7
    cpbmom
    @Slowerthanzero I'm with you on that one. The idea of CW's is great, having user art supported and all that, but being a $$ venture...I'm out. I look at them, I wishlist the ones I'd wardrobe, but other than that, I don't worry about galleries or TC's for them. The ...4? I have were gifted. I won't pay real money for them, I won't buy into the system. So...I don't much care about this change either.
    8
    Darkrai
    Quote By @Paradise:
    Isn't the point of a game to be able to achieve anything as long as you can put in the time and effort for it?


    That's true for site items here. But CWs are all user-created and it's a user-run market. It's subject to different conditions and with 20,000+ CWs onsite, it's really too late to change that now.



    And while I agree with you on how disappointing it is to see popular designs' recolors being released as one batch...once it's posted at one batch there's nothing the releaser can do no matter how many people post. They can get a warning for changing it after the fact.
    4
    Ravers-Disease
    What?? That's fucked dude. I love the CW pawn shop.
    4
    Ursa
    @Frenchi i hope this doesnt come across as rude or anything, but CWs can still devalue even without the pawn shop! you can say that 'big-time-cw buyers' would profit, but from what? imagine someone bought 700 csc for 7 usd to buy an item. if they manage to sell it for higher, good for them! but its still someone else's money, right? SOMEONE ELSE 'LOST' in monetary terms. if they sold it for the same, that's fine too, they lose nothing and gain nothing. if they sell it for lower, they have essentially lost money. they lost their item, they lost their usd, they lost a portion of their csc. THEY ALREADY LOSE. and then comes along the pawn shop, further worsening the ability of those 'profit makers' to CUT LOSSES.



    also again, as i've said, selling an item to the pawn shop for someone else to buy it is essentially 1 person paying HALF PRICE for someone else WITHOUT ANY GAIN. which is pretty shitty. would you give me 3 bucks to buy me something that cost 7? that im not going to share with you and am going to enjoy ALL TO MYSELF? maybe once? would you do it multiple times? 10 times? 20? thats essentially what cw slotters are doing for the rest of the community via pawn shop.
    9
    Tundra
    bye pawn shop, nice knowing you!! c:





    personally I see things in pawn shop and think oh that's cute but I hardly ever buy since i figure it will still be there down the road. maybe with the closing, some items will actually be bought.





    and the items not bought will still be there, just not 100% open access 100% of the time





    i'd still love an option to delete items for csc but i guess that's just me
    4
    Paradise
    I am with Slowerthanzero. CWs disappoint me. It is frustrating to have items onsite that users can never hope to achieve. Isn't the point of a game to be able to achieve anything as long as you can put in the time and effort for it? Yet many of these CWs are impossible prices, or privates or just unavailable to buy. And then super popular CWs releasers will only ping to release 1 batch when they have 3 pages of users immediately after the ping wanting the item but they won't slot ever more. So yeah, unpopular opinion but as it is I don't typically involve myself in CWs anyways. However, am curious to see how this change will supposedly help.
    23
    Darkrai
    @Ramby The R200 forum is the subforum in Advertising where CWs can be bought/sold secondhand. So "Looking through the R200 forum" is just, browsing that forum.
    0
    Sleeb
    This makes me sad.
    2
    sakura
    @KEN i went back and read your comments and i realize i'm assuming you meant the person selling an item back to the shop, the site would be covering the amount for the original slot

    now knowing i made this assumption.let me make sure i'm interpreting your suggestion properly

    user buys wig for 700 from releaser, tries and doesn't like it, sells back to shop for 300 (same as pawn shop would sell), shop now has 1 of wig in inventory that can be sold for 700, when a different user buys, subeta takes back the 300, shop makes 400 profit

    right?

    if this is what you meant, i can too see a lot of benefits to doing something like this

    ie: people know who the original releaser was, the shop is making the profit again, etc



    the problem i would see for this as a business owner is that subeta makes nothing from this set-up except the monies put down originally for getting the item on site. also, not sure how or if this could even be implemented? it's a good idea though
    0
    LadyTamara
    WTF...
    3
    _blackwolf_2009_
    @Keith



    How often is the pawn shop gonna be opened?
    0
    Cogito
    Wow, okay. Well, as far as my two cents, I'm a bit amazed by the devaluing statement. The only things that seemed to be devalued were the some of the CWs from the beginning that the art was kind of meh on. Probably things that wouldn't get passed now (... well, depending on the day). Of course, maybe I just feel that way because there isn't anyway in Hell I'm spending 10 real life dollars on one item like some people are willing to do. I understood the actual not-so-great items that aren't selling after some point being deleted, but this seems like a good idea that went bad because it overshot. This also is probably the end of me buying CWs, which makes me a bit sad. I'm not subjecting myself to the circus that is the CW wearable forums and ping groups. I'm also not subjecting myself to the trade center back and forth things. To all those who still post their CWs with a set price in the trades, I love you, you will be my only hope and the only hope of my friends who have CWs in their wishlists that I like to bomb.
    12
    Ramby
    May I ask for a link to the r200 shop or forum is??? I am looking and cant find it. Thanks so much for your help please
    0
    MewPearl
    Well I'm not... totally okay with this change. I almost never buy CWs straight from the artist, but that's because a lot of the items I want for myself or my friends are either super limited to one batch or private. And at least one occasion, contacting the artist of a private item got no response at all. I have to rely on the pawn shop in the hopes that the item shows up there.



    Almost all of the CWs I've collected have been found in the pawn shop, and it would suck to miss out on finding a nice item at an affordable price. (Because a CW that's 800 to 1k csc just seems overpriced to me, and I've seen items sell for more than that.)



    My main concern is that if users are still able to sell items to the pawn shop, and it opens for that special occasion, it will be a mad rush for the users on and with enough csc on hand to grab whatever items they want, leaving the offline users almost no chance to check or buy from the shop. Kinda like how the Token Shop restocks are, but with only a small handful of buyable CWs as opposed to dozens or hundreds of items to buy over the course of 24hrs. So personally, as a user that does their best to avoid the seemingly cliquey social group would just stop buying CWs altogether.
    17
    Scorpio
    @Keith

    Oh please please! R200 user shops that we can set any prices on for those spare CWs we are looking to part with.

    Make them show up on Shop Search. Anyone could see them being sold.



    THIS WOULD BE A BRILLIANT IDEA. + 1000
    53
    flamboyantCuttlefish
    @Keith Ooh, do you mean like user shops where you can set prices in CSC for secondhand CWs? Because that'd solve so many of the issues that people are bringing up in these comments!
    13
    Asylum
    Yeah screw you pawn shop
    2
    Keith
    @Frenchi I'd rather implement a way for users to sell only CWs in their shops for CSC, and that way the price can be set by the user, and can fluctuate that way :D
    33
    Slowerthanzero
    I will add on my own opinion, that CWs are pretty high priced to begin with, so them being "devalued" seems a bit harsh of a statement. I have never bought CWs and never will as I don't like the idea of spending the equal of 5-7 dollars on a single pile of pixels (and that is just the discounted price in the pawn shop, not the original price.) that yes, may look nice but there are plenty of official subeta items that are just as nice. The discounts would have made it more likely for me to grab something, though still not very likely at all due to the high pricing of them. With this new implementation, my hances of ever buying a CW are now completely 0% seeing as I'm sure the full price of these items are even more of a turn off than the discount prices. I could honestly justify getting some CW if they were only the equal of a dollar or 2 in CSC. Honestly, CWs have been the biggest disappointment in this site in my opinion. I realize I'm probably going to get a lot of disagreement with my statement, but I felt the desire to make it regardless of if it does anything.
    22
    Frenchi
    Quote By @Keith:
    Also, items can't fluctuate in price with the pawn shop.




    didn't mean to imply that they did. i just meant in a general sense - some items that originally sold for 600 csc are now worth a couple thou simply because that's what people have agreed to pay for them.
    1
    Queenie
    I know I'm not yet into the cw community, I've released like 1 thing and I may understand why this is being implemented but it sucks a lot especially for those of us who can't slot on everything we'd like to and have to use the pawn to buy things we like.



    Sure, a lot of people wait til its cheaper to buy because hey! Csc is fucking expensive man. And not everyone can afford to blow 10 bucks on buying it nor are everyone able to spend 24/7 on here to make sP to buy csc.



    Like I said, I get it. I really do. But its a bit of a bummer for some people who are now going to pretty have no chance at this in the future. I know you're implementing other ways but still. /shrugs
    3
    VOLTAGE
    Whoa nelly, I saw this being discussed on the CW makers forum but it got implemented so quickly! Kudos on you Keith! *Also shitstorm ahoy*



    For an item to end up in the pawn shop, a person must have sold it there, and the pawn shop ALWAYS sells higher than it buys. There are many many people on the R200 threads selling items for cheaper than pawn shop price (And I myself have done it before). What would help is an easier way for users to advertise their 'second-hand' CWs so to say, but that's a discussion for another day.



    Some people seem to think that as CW releasers we make a lot of money... we don't lol. It's a struggle just to break even on releasing CWs... we do it cause we want to, not because it's profitable. (If CW makers released things purely for profit we will have very very few CWs on site believe you me) But for some people it's become SO unprofitable that it's not even fun anymore, can you imagine dropping 1-2k to push your item on site (cause you love it and want to use it) and have several spare copies, but are unable to sell those as well cause someone put your item in the pawn shop and now people can just buy it there thx. I've been there man and it is unsustainable to have several copies each of your releases lying around unable to be sold. It's not a case of HUEHUHEHUE THINK OF ALL THE PROFITS WE COULD GAIN BY INFLATING THE PRICE OF THIS ITEM *twirls moustache evilly*

    Don't even get me started on the price to commission CWs in the first place OTL Most of CW releasers are not artists :(





    I understand not wanting to spend a lot of money on CWs! I really do! And dare I say it as someone who browses R200 regularly the pawn shop isn't even the cheapest way to buy CWs currently. It's just one of the easiest ways to browse and hopefully Keith and the team could find someone to help make CWs more accessible to all!
    30
    Hunger
    Well, if this is going to help the cw market, and hopefully eventually reduce the cost of cws, then I'm all for it!

    I could see all these beautiful items not getting on site(or taking a long time to fill slots)...Which just saddens me

    So, I'm really glad to see that there's some kind of plan(s) to be put it place to make things better!
    8
    Keith
    @Frenchi We actually record a lot of "events" on the site as they happen. Less than 5% of the time has someone purchased CSC in the same day as they've bought an item from the pawn shop - so it's generally not people seeing a great deal and running to buy CSC.



    Also, items can't fluctuate in price with the pawn shop.
    6
    Ramby
    @Andy may I please ask what the Looking thru the r200 forum is? I have not seen it before that I can remember thanks
    0
    Cathii
    As a cw artist and one who has sold, bought and released cws for years, I'd just like to bring a different perspective to people thinking it is only negative ;



    Someone who purchases or releases a design wants to either break even or make profit - it's the whole point, right?

    As it was now, cws were hardly slotting, newer items ended up in the pawn shop for cheaper and it demotivated anyone into diving in the cw community because it was becoming an incredibly expensive (and non-rewarding) hobby.



    I totally understand that not everyone can pay the full price of cws (heck ive gifted several hundreds of cws myself), but it also isn't fair for those who do pay, to see their items being so devalued in such a short amount of time.



    That being said, I do hope Subeta can provide us with a more dynamic cw economy. As long as closing the pawn shop is the just beginning of a series of changes, I think we can atleast all hope for a better system. We need more ways to circulate cws user-to-user, not just user-subeta to make this work!
    36
    Latreia
    @Keith

    Please let me know your thoughts on my previous post - forgot to ping you there c: thanks~
    0
    Lantern
    Well this sucks
    2
    Quo
    Okay so this makes sense so far so I'm gonna hold out judgment to see what alternative methods y'all come up with.

    I'm curious to see how this will play out.
    3
    Julie
    Well, I haven't been in the CW game long. Not sure what I'll do. The few items I've released if I see them in the pawn shop I haven't been too bent over this. Sometimes you can't work with an item and instead of trying to sell it, it was easier just to pawn it. And I know I bought my share of CWs over the years. I'm going to wait to see how this plays out.
    0
    LtRipley
    Oh well...this is sad, seems like something that only benefits a small group
    9
    sakura
    @KEN thank you for explaining your thought process i couldn't quite imagine how you mathed that lol

    while i can see your reasoning for your suggestion, it still runs a high risk of ruining someone's ability to make a profit from their work. sure one or two copies sold back to the shop might not hurt it over all but for every one sold back to the shop you'd have to sell TWO to make any profit again.

    if a 700 wig is sold back to a shop, when someone buys it again at that price it would be zero profit if the site itself is selling back the slot pricing with no cost to the shop owner

    so even if it's one CW getting sold back at a time it kind of becomes a black hole of zero profit for the releaser who put their time, effort and money up to even get it on site in the first place
    0
    Mistress_Murder
    @Rumi

    Yes! Your comment i so agree with. <3
    3
    Metaphor
    Well, if there will be something new implemented, I am willing to give it a chance. I'm sad to see the pawnshop CW's go, but I can understand how they may bring down the value of some items.
    0
    Frenchi
    yep, there's the "devaluation" excuse i was expecting... honestly, if people aren't willing to buy a particular item for 700 csc or whatever, why take away their option of finding it at a slight discount? just a few months ago you guys said you would start clearing items that had been in the pawn shop too long, and now you're saying you want to shut the whole thing down, except for "special events"? this seems like a pretty dumb idea that will only benefit big-time CW releasers - who i know are your biggest bacon-bringers, but seriously? you can see everyone is universally bummed out by this decision.



    devalued CWs don't really strike me as that much of an issue. the really desirable ones will go for what they're worth; no one in their right mind would sell a popular CW to the pawn shop when they know they can get full price for it from another user. anything sold to the pawn shop is something a person can't unload quickly enough, which means whatever "value" it has is subjective. let stuff gain and lose value! it's okay! and honestly it might mean more cash for the site in the grand scheme of things, considering plenty of people buy csc because they find something cool in the pawn shop that they're more enthusiastic to get because it's a bargain.
    43
    Rumi
    I really appreciate all the ways that subeta gives us free csc, and now in bathhouse too! :)



    The fact that we will still be allowed to pawn cw's we aren't able to sell to other users is much appreciated ^^ I am very happy that subeta is working on some changes to the cw system. Most of the changes on here are for the good of the users. I applaud the improvements. And I am confident this will be a good thing going forward ♥
    13
    Trinity
    Rather disappointing, to say the least.
    7
    sentinel
    what are the "demographics" of subeta i wanna know what i am



    ill miss the pawn shop but am not too sad to see it leaving. excited for the changes coming!!
    3
    jim
    Hm. I guess I wouldn't be overly upset about this if there were better ways to "get involved" in CWs? Like, it's really time-consuming and boring to trawl through all the boards looking for something to slot on, and the CW Shop page in the Cash Shop doesn't offer a good way to find releases you might want -- you can't filter by layer or by colour or get "if you like this shop, you might like ____" recommendations.



    I don't know. I like CWs and all, but since it's not "official" it's not organized very well and can get a little confusing.
    16
    Straywillow
    I have read the reasoning.. this is to help those that make CW's because they lose coin with the pawn shop. Can't the items simply be raised so they don't or Subeta not charge so much to make them encouraging creativity?



    I didn't buy too many at the pawn shop but GREATLY enjoyed looking at the variety of things made in one spot. I predict what will happen is most won't even see what is made now since they won't be in a central location and most usually don't buy (or rarely won't even go to the forum to search around) out of curiosity like the pawn shop encouraged.



    Hence, I hope there is another amenable solution to help those that make CW's and those that like to look and dream :)



    PS The only reason I have bought a couple of things was saw at the pawn shop or searching (rarely) through the wardrobe.
    7
    KEN
    @sakura You sell CW you don't want to Cash Shop. Site gives you CSC (as the Pawn Shop does now). Item gets put into releasers shop inventory (let's say they had 9 of that particular CW. they now have 10 to sell. Value of CW is not diminished. When the CW sells , the Cash Shop deducts the cost of whatever it put out for the item from the releaser's fee. Though the releaser is getting LESS for the item, they technically got the CW back 'for free'.
    0
    Pinkpetals
    Not cool, the pawn shop is a way to sell fast. How many CW can there possibly be? How many dresses can there be before they all start to look the same. The cw makers are just making money and the rest of us just keep loosing more and more. This is a game and it's all about spending more and more real money. I have spent a lot which I don't mind but give us a break. Oh well.
    11
    Andie
    Looking thru the r200 forum to find CW's that people are selling can be a costly and a long dragged out process. I know when I was selling my items...most I sold for slot price even though I knew they were going for much more then that. People were shocked and surprised to get such good deals from me! My CW's were flying out left and right...sad really how some try to inflate prices till no one wants to buy or are even afraid to offer on CW's there... because they know the prices are too rich for them to pay. I use the pawn shop a lot to buy CW's and I have put many in there also. I will be sorry to see it go.
    15
    Jasper
    @Keith Welp, seeing as the knife's at my throat I'll just say this: If you're going to shut it down, *shut it down entirely.* Don't allow people to essentially delete items for a pittance of csc. Take it all away or none of it away. That's the actual fair thing to do.
    6
    Starfleet
    @Jasper This isn't the end of the world, subeta is not a real tangible thing but a game. If you can't afford CSC through real life currency, you buy it with sP. Yes it's gone up in price since CWs became a thing, but it's still completely something anyone can obtain. You are treating this as if so is a real thing you need to take care of real people, or real things. Please for your well being, take a step back and breathe.
    8
    LoftyBalloon
    Quote:
    We will be providing better tools to find CWs (including within the new wardrobe) and purchasing them, as well as hopefully creating a way for creators to get them out to users for less cost to everyone.




    Oops, ignore the last sentence of my comment then ^X^; Sorry, didn't see this before I posted. Yay for better tools!
    4
    Mistress_Murder
    I choose to give this a chance.

    I admit i was bitter when user shops changed, but after awhile i had to work with it. It's not so bad and i bet this won't be that bad either.
    9
    sakura
    @Jasper please review keith's posts again with glasses on because you're angry and making baseless assumptions about items getting deleted. calm down.



    @KEN i'm not sure where you think the 700 CSC you're getting back from the original shop comes from? because it would have to come from the releaser. subeta doesn't pay releasers to put CWs on the site. releasers pay to get them on site whether it's by slotting or forking over the CSC by themselves
    4
    flamboyantCuttlefish
    @Lia Okay... But clearly there are plenty of people who do like to sell things to the Pawn Shop. There's tons of CWs out there that have a very, very low demand. So it's nice to have the option to sell to the Pawn Shop because a lesser amount of CSC is sometimes better than waiting (quite literally) months to be able to sell it at a higher price. Yeah, the option to sell CWs to the Pawn Shop is still gonna be available. But now nobody gets any chance to buy any of those items -- which means those CWs have no chance to get back into circulation.



    I feel like all this move is going to do is raise the sP price of CSC even higher and stifle the overall CW market.
    10
    Trendy
    Welp, this is one change that I absolutely do not agree with. I guess I won't be owning buying any CWs now, since the only ones I could really afford were in the Pawn Shop. And this is coming from a person that has spent hundreds on this site. I'm sorry, but this is a crazy change. What gives? Why not just increase a bit the lowest limit a CW can be bought at in the Pawn Shop?
    15
    Latreia
    CW reselling prices will definitely go up if the purchasing section closes ;_____;



    Can I just put my two cents in - this change is definitely good for artists and CW makers, but may make it difficult for buyers to buy CWs that are NOT in the few thousand csc range. Plus csc is a lot expensive than in the past - gosh I still remember 100 csc being 3m each. Nowadays, a number of slots are also 700 csc each.



    Perhaps why people are not willing to slot on items is because they are worried that when they want to change their wardrobe it will be difficult to resell them even at slot price?



    May I suggest something - please reconsider and let people at least SEE what's in the pawn shop so they can know what items are on site AND ALSO MAKE PEOPLE WHO PAWN ITEMS GET SLOT PRICE BACK. That will help make csc more affordable to the General subeta population by increasing csc supply and people won't be too scared that they can't recover what they paid for their original slots that they won't slot on items.



    This way artists won't have to be too worried about slots not filling and cannot recover their costs. Csc will be more affordable and the csc can run through the economy.



    Now there's the only two problems of item batches and the reselling price. LOL.
    28
    Starfleet
    I don't feel strongly either way. I've used the pawn shop, gotten a few nice items that way, but I won't even notice it missing.
    1
    Holly
    the pawn shop was ruining the cw economy. i think it's harder to understand unless you're actively releasing and buying cws. it ultimately boils down to fewer and fewer cws being put on site. it’s hard to fill a batch and thus get a cw on site if people know they can casually pick up a copy later in the pawn shop, or they know they won’t be able to resell it if they lose interest in it. people don’t slot, so people don’t release, so people don’t commission. i’m glad to see this change
    25
    Lia
    @Jasper well I'm sorry for you but first of all those items costed people money to get onsite, so it's sorta of unreasonable for you to expect for a discount just cause you can't afford the, Plus, if an item doesn't sell I'be way more happy to sell it to someone else for 400/500 CSC instead of pawning it for 300 CSC so prizes will still be reasonbale. And please try to remember people paid full CSC price for those items.
    14
    KEN
    @sakura The items would go directly to the releasers shop inventory. This way 'old' CWs can get recycled and releasers can still make $ on their CWs.
    2
    Slowerthanzero
    @Metaphor Ahh I see, well that would at least make sense. Thanks for filling me in. =)
    0
    LoftyBalloon
    Aww, I'm sorry to hear this :( Just yesterday I found a balloon item from my wishlist in there! I wish there was a better way to advertise buying and selling of "used" CWs in this case.
    6
    Darkrai
    @Jasper Wow calm the fuck down okay. First of all I just wanna point out that you can earn 150 CSC for free from the bathhouse every month. It's not much but it's something (and it's not nearly as shady as the "offer walls" that were tried), and hey, while you're checking in to visit the bathhouse you can do a couple of quests and earn some sP to put towards your CSC total.



    Second, other users are losing out because of the pawn shop. We have to fund the CWs to get them onsite in the first place and unless you're able to draw the items yourself you're gonna be lucky to even break even on the item. And then you get stuck selling it to the Pawn Shop for half of what you paid because no one wants to buy it later. Until you threaten to close the Pawn Shop, then suddenly everyone and their brother wants the item for the same price you would have charged on the forums.



    Side note: the post straight up says "unless we open it for a special event" so it's not like these items are never gonna see the light of day again, just rarely. And the majority of them, if people didn't want them before, and don't want them now that the shop will be closing, they probably won't want them then either.
    10
    Darkrai
    @Jasper Wow calm the fuck down okay. First of all I just wanna point out that you can earn 150 CSC for free from the bathhouse every month. It's not much but it's something (and it's not nearly as shady as the "offer walls" that were tried), and hey, while you're checking in to visit the bathhouse you can do a couple of quests and earn some sP to put towards your CSC total.



    Second, other users are losing out because of the pawn shop. We have to fund the CWs to get them onsite in the first place and unless you're able to draw the items yourself you're gonna be lucky to even break even on the item. And then you get stuck selling it to the Pawn Shop for half of what you paid because no one wants to buy it later. Until you threaten to close the Pawn Shop, then suddenly everyone and their brother wants the item for the same price you would have charged on the forums.



    Side note: the post straight up says "unless we open it for a special event" so it's not like these items are never gonna see the light of day again, just rarely. And the majority of them, if people didn't want them before, and don't want them now that the shop will be closing, they probably won't want them then either.
    24
    _blackwolf_2009_
    I'm a little upset with this. I tend to browse it to find some CWs I never knew existed because I don't visit the CW threads enough.



    How often will the CW pawn shop be open now? Is it once a year or more frequent?
    11
    Mayonaka
    Wait, so... Items other people made are now going to be controlled by staff and only released on special events? I don't agree with this.
    26
    MoondustDreams
    edit:



    either way whatever happens, At least I have one month to buy the stuff i want now. Thanks for close to a month warning, though some of us are protesting..You could have just shut it down today but you choose to keep us in the loop/and give us a time to buy the stuff now
    9
    Jasper
    @Lia but not at reasonable prices. As I've said from the very beginning, the MAX a cw should cost is 3-4 dollars. Not the 5-8 that's usually the standard and this solution isn't helping those of us who can't buy our CSC. They've just made things worse for us and what's especially shady is that we'll still be able to SELL to the pawnshop--aka, DELETING THE ITEMS--but we can't ever buy from it again. That's artificial inflation at it's scummiest and it's easy for rich users or shop owners to be all for this but it leaves an entire demographic of people out in the dust. In fact, multiple demographics are left out here.
    20
    KITA
    i couldn't afford them even in the pawn shop

    :(
    9
    TwistedMiss
    CWs are already to expensive in my opinion. This just cements the fact that they are beyond me. sigh
    25
    sakura
    @KEN tbh this would place an unnecessary (and probably unwanted) burden on releasers and would never allow them to truly make any sort of profit on their work



    @Jasper you know can purchase CSC from other users using sP still, right?





    Now if only people would start browsing the r200 thread more often so they're not relying on the pawn shop to buy things second hand. Sure would help negate the need for the Pawn Shop at all, people.
    10
    Ursa
    @Jasper whoa there for awhile. for that item to get into the pawn shop, someone had to ALREADY pay 7 bucks for the item. then, being unable to sell it off to someone else who wanted it, had to put it back into the pawn for 3 bucks, and then you come around and buy it for 4. essentially, SOMEONE ELSE paid half the price of an item that ONLY ONE PERSON CAN OWN. how is that fair?
    16
    Mesmer
    I am so glad this is happening.

    I see a lot of people here that are upset and I understand being upset about this easy way to get CWs being removed.

    The CW market is dying though, and I know that may be hard to see if you don't draw or submit CWs yourself. Something needs to be done, or even less people are going to be around to produce these items. Most of the people who I used to see regularly in the CW community are long gone and it's depressing.

    If you still want to purchase CWs, please check out the forum boards and support your fellow artists and commissioners. Waiting till people have the item on site /hurts/ us, not helps us.
    30
    Keith
    @Jasper I'd recommend reading the community guidelines before making another comment.



    Cash Shop Wearables are just that, they're cash shop wearables. They've always cost cash shop credits, which is a currency purchased with real life money. We've added the ability to get CSC from the pools, we've given out CSC pretty freely lately when the site is acting up as a "thank you for still being here" and we're looking at ways to overall lower the burden and cost of CWs for users.



    However, the pawn shop was a disaster for people creating CWs and it was full of items typically for 6+ months until we'd clear it. The number of daily purchases were not that notable, and most purchases happen when we announce that there is a sale.



    We will be providing better tools to find CWs (including within the new wardrobe) and purchasing them, as well as hopefully creating a way for creators to get them out to users for less cost to everyone.



    This is a process and announcing the pawn shop closure is step one.
    61
    Speiro
    I saw some of the discussion on the admin posts page, so I've been curious about this. :o



    I don't really do CWs so this doesn't really affect me, but this is still a bombshell. It'll be interesting to see how it will influence CSC prices.
    6
    MoondustDreams
    Okay I can see the point of devaluing on cws. I release cws from time to time and people who commission me, if this helps that situation then I am all for it..



    but if people were to sell their cw's, I would still like the opportunity to purchase the cws they sell for full retail value that it was sold as(even though I may have to pay more compared to old pawn shop prices) but at least its not like a r200 auction where copies get sold for ridiculous prices.
    0
    HADES
    Can't say I really did much with the pawn shop, but I am sad to see it being removed. I've seen cws I have commissioned in there and it didn't bother me. Older cws will always be recycled for something that is newly accepted whether they be pawned or sold to another user. It is the same for IRL such as clothing, games, books, and similar possessions.
    13
    Tuesday
    Honestly, the actual CW shop & feed UI are pretty bad, they're quite difficult to search. I like the pawn cw shop for its ease of access and I'm not sure if I would continue to purchase cws because there are so many out there, and its so difficult to sift through them.
    20
    Julie
    Is it April Fool's Day?
    3
    Lia
    @Jasper can you stop foaming at the mouth for a second and think? Items don't magically appear in the pawn shop, thoser are copies people don't want anymore, they'll still be selling them, just not in the pawn shop.
    21
    Shelbi
    Terrible news :c
    2
    Ursa
    rip random buying and gifting, but im glad this is finally happening hhhh
    2
    EmCee
    I really don't understand this. The shoutbox causes more drama than any other feature on this site and this is the that is chosen to be punished?

    We can sell back but we can't purchase? The height of CW's popularity are gone and that's natural for any feature. I just think this was a poor decision.
    25
    Lilac
    @Darkrai i know, i browse the cw pawn shop a few times a day since it opened!! if i was lucky enough once in a while i could find something i really wanted, now i wont have this perspective anymore : D
    1
    Lia
    Before everyone lose their mind, please try to remember that if items are in the pawn shop it's because users pawned them for a lot LESS that you're willing to pay to get them, so this is better for everyone! I can sell the CWs I don't want for 500 CSC instead of pawning them for 300 CSC and then seing them sold at 600 CSC. I'm happy about this, TBH.
    24
    Jasper
    Quote By keith:
    The pawn shop devalues the price of CWs, most purchases happen when the item has reached the end-of-price-lowering and it makes it hard for people who actually make CWs to keep a value on their items, or people who purchase them.



    We're going to implement other methods of selling CWs directly to users that doesn't include selling them for a mandated discount over time.
    So I was right, this is about your bottom line. This is despicable! Some of us cannot afford to buy CSC, you don't give us any way of earning it for free and AGAIN, these items are not worth more than 3-4 dollars each. Yet you want us to buy them for 6-8 a piece. Why don't you just shut down subeta and go into mobile gaming if you're going to be this cheap and petty with your money making tactics?!
    25
    Its_Just_Me
    Wow! I didn't realize it was April 1st already! :P
    23
    finch
    Can we at the very least make it so we can search the actual CW shop by layer or something :( The interface in it isn't very good...
    8
    curbdirt
    yeah more explanation is needed, pretty please :c this makes me incredibly sad
    5
    far
    As a releaser; thank you for giving us the chance to keep the value of our custom wearables!
    10
    KEN
    Why not 'sell' them back to the Cash Shop for CSC? Then the items can go back to the user's CW Shop Inventory for full price?
    27
    Muerte
    Thank goodness.
    7
    Darkrai
    @Lilac Unfortunately old CWs are getting harder and harder to find, even in pawn, since they've cleared the shop a few times :c



    I'm looking forward to see what the other method(s) of selling things are though because I've definitely been there with struggling to fill slots
    6
    Jasper


    OMG are you kidding me? After years of this thing ruining the economy, now you're deciding to shut it down? Why? We're used to this now and the pawnshop is the only way for many of us to get CW's at a reasonable price. (These items have not ever been worth more than 3 bucks a piece and you know it.) Which is half the problem for you, isn't it? You're not making as much cheddar so now you're shutting down so you can make more revenue!



    There are so many wishes of mine in there too! I can't afford to get them all before you close it off. You... you EXPLICITIVES! No, seriously, this has to stop. You're going to allow us to continue essentially deleting these items and lose out on revenue but then deny us the ability to buy CW's at a cheaper rate than the standard retail; WHY? Explain yourselves!
    43
    flamboyantCuttlefish
    Isn't the CW part of the Pawn Shop a pretty good profit-maker for Subeta...? Of the people who buy CWs from there due to the cheaper price, I'm not sure many of them will just switch to paying more for the same number of CWs.
    19
    finch
    Welp. That's a huge disappointment.
    12
    Wren
    oh man that really bums me out. I check the pawn shop every single day and a good half of my CW came from there. I'm so sad :s
    14
    Keith
    @MoondustDreams While you may have purchased newer CWs, most of them reached 3+ months before being purchased in the pawn shop which makes it harder for users to sell the items to anywhere BUT the pawn shop.
    7
    HeadPhonz
    i'd also like to know why. this is extremely disappointing, it has been a way to find cw's i wouldn't be able to get otherwise. will there be a different way to get access to those cw's now?
    1
    Quo
    y tho
    4
    Lia
    Oh wowo, I didn't see this coming O__O
    4
    Hamda
    You forgot the "because" part.



    Can we have an explanation to go with such a big change?
    28
    Stiles
    Ah IK there was drama about this. I don't understand anything about what goes into it. I just know aside from being generously gifted CW's (<3 tysm), this was the only way I'd ever be able to purchase them. So I guess bye to that?
    8
    Shawndra
    *sad face*
    1
    Ramby
    Why please I browse it all the time and periodically buy now what can we do to buy at cheaper prices. Not everyone can afford full price and that pawn shop helps so much. It feels like yall are taking away a lot of fun for some of us *sigh*
    25
    Metaphor
    @Slowerthanzero





    Nothing terribly big other than that I have sometimes seem people get kind of upset about their CWs ending up in the Pawn Shop. I'm not sure if it's caused a big enough problem to cause this decision, but it's something I've observed and couldn't help wondering if this attitude contributed to the decision (even in a small way).
    6
    MoondustDreams
    Is this because its a dumping ground where most are unclaimed?



    why not get rid of the old/bad quality cw's and make sure from that point on, only cw items (newer/better quality can be purchased) while still giving those an option to sell old/new cws to pawn?



    because sadly, I miss out on slots on newer cws and pawn shop is my chance to purchase that. I think to get rid the chance to purchase new cw's in the pawn shop isn't a good idea for those like me who do purchase cws from there(and I hoard all the cw's i have bought/made in my wardrobe/tc even if its old or new)..just my opinion.
    10
    Keith
    The pawn shop devalues the price of CWs, most purchases happen when the item has reached the end-of-price-lowering and it makes it hard for people who actually make CWs to keep a value on their items, or people who purchase them.



    We're going to implement other methods of selling CWs directly to users that doesn't include selling them for a mandated discount over time.
    26
    jersey
    An explanation to go along with the statement of the change would be nice.
    9
    Lilac
    there goes my hope of buying old cws ahaha
    13
    Latreia
    This is quite sudden o.o
    2
    _Cresenta_
    Awww :(
    2
    Slowerthanzero
    @Metaphor And what drama was there that was caused? I've never heard of any strife caused by this so I'm curious to know what you know about it.
    1
    Knockout
    Why is this a thing? I mean, it's the only way for some of us to see CW's. If it's because some CW makers complain? Why change it just for them?
    33
    Frenchi
    what?? yeah i would also like to know the reason. is it because it's "devaluing" CWs or something? because i quite like trawling the pawn shop for interesting things at good prices :(
    14
    Jules
    I would like to know why too please
    2
    Sirensong
    Yes, why? Would really like to know the reasoning behind this.
    18
    PointyBubbles
    Oh no. :(
    1
    Darkrai
    How disappointing :c
    5
    Metaphor
    Hm, that's strange. I always liked browsing through the CW pawnshop for birds that I wouldn't be able to purchase otherwise. I'd like to see the reasoning myself, although I wonder if some of the drama caused by it has something to do with it.
    12
    Reykur
    O_0 why?
    2
    MerlinPendragon
    WHY??? -cries in a corner-
    6
    lovecraft
    Interesting.
    1
    CaughtByLove
    what is going on
    2
    Jem
    WAT



    what wait no why, my heart wasn't ready to hear this
    7
    Lore
    Um... what? Where is this coming from o.O
    20
    Bug
    *there not here, whoops. Keyboard still sticky from a coffee spill last month :x
    0
    Tuesday
    For real?
    4
    Bug
    Wait, why? Is here a reason for this?



    (By the way, @Keith, your HA is fabulous.)
    6