Duality Quests: More Context

Mori and Nori Duality Doll
Earlier today we updated what was once the Cursed Quests to be the Duality Quests. I'd like to provide more context into why that change was made, why it's been so long in the making, and how we can move on in a positive way going forward.

First, users brought up the issues regarding how Mori and Nori were portrayed so this brainstorm thread so born. If you look at the date, you can see it was created well over a year ago and users brought it up before that. It's unacceptable that we took so long to address this. While yes, our team is small and incredibly stretched thin, it shouldn't have taken us the amount of time it did. We as a team have a problem with breaking tasks up into smaller things; we always want to do everything at once. In this case, we really thought it made the most sense and was the most respectful to get everything changed at once. It was clearly not the right way to go about things, and I personally want to apologize to those I put off with my "we're working on it" generic comments.

Now, what was the issue with Nori and Mori?
Quote:
"Mori and Nori as well as items relating to them have been changed due to the use of terminology that is offensive to those with Dissociative Identity Disorder. While they were not meant to be a direct representation of the disorder, many users have voiced their concerns that the inherent nature of her backstory alongside it being painted in a negative light opened up a lot of opportunities for offensive language being used throughout the site. Since Mori and Nori are such an accessible and essential part of the site, having things like this at the forefront may reenforce the thought that the usage of these terms is acceptable and normalized, which is not what's wanted at all in a site that seeks to be inclusive and diverse."


This was beautifully said by user fun who has experience with DID and has been a champion for educating the staff and users. I asked them to sum up what the problem for users without having to read the entire suggestion thread.

We've updated the text for the Mori and Nori quests (the intro text, the turn in text, the failed quest, the reward text), the quest shop text, the subetapedia main entry about the two as well as the quick facts listed in the quest givers list, and various items around the site. We've also renamed the achievements associated with Mori and Nori. Did we miss something? Please ping me (Amber) so I can adjust it.

In the future, I will actively try to not offer excuses ("our team is small" "our focus is on a holiday") and will do my best to work with users to get things updated in a timely manner. This isn't always possible, of course, but I personally could have done a lot better job with this particular issue.

Why does this all matter?
Like fun's quote says, we really do strive to be inclusive and diverse. We don't want to have things on site that upset users in a negative way like this. It's one thing to not like an item because you think spiders (or something similar) are scary, it's another to have to deal with an item promoting negative stereotypes to a mental health disorder you may have. By not addressing user concerns about Mori and Nori in a timely matter, we as staff made part of our user base feel unheard and unimportant which is never what we want. We've adjusted items with a quick turn around before (Algonquin Plushie comes to mind) and the fact we took over a year to make these changes was plain wrong.

Why post a new news post instead of just adding another comment to the earlier post?
The users who brought up the issue with Mori and Nori, continued to fight for the change, and actively tried to educate users and staff deserve this post. They deserve to be publicly acknowledged for the work they did.
User Avatar: 217

Posted by Amber

Load this on Kumos site
usagi
Thank you to subeta and everyone involved for making this change happen.
lion_magnus
Thank you for your hard work and the effort in making this place as inclusive as possible!
Sleeb
Wow, I've never seen a post that made me instantly want to block a bunch of people on subeta of all places.

Thank you for the update and change, Staff. I hope to see plot better explaining their situation in the future.
TheGhostHybrid
Hiya! This is so incredibly wonderful. I have many friends who are plural, and I had to share this news with them (even though most of them aren’t Subetans, lol). As requested by @Amber, I’d like to point out the following items that still reference the old lore:
Mori and Nori
Mori
Nori
Oh, one more thing! While searching, I found this absolute GEM of an item:
Mori and Noris Campfire Tales

Mori and Noris Campfire Tales
↑↑↑ Now THIS is good. I dropped my jaw while reading this description; it is so subtle and makes it very clear that systems and other members of the plural community were involved here!

Overall, while I am not a system myself (and frequently find myself the token singlet, lmao), this filled me with such joy, and to see the change finally come to fruition is a great payoff. Kudos to everyone!
Lia
Everything is offensive on Subeta, this is why I barely play anymore. And before anyone jump at my throat I do have a severe mental disability but I still think this is weird. Staff is apologizing as they killed someone, ugh.
placebo
@JayPanda
According to the revised DSM is referred to shortly, 'split personality' or 'multiple personality' are outdated terms for this disorder. However, many people around the world may not know about the change, which is fair since not everyone struggles with mental problems [umbrella term here].
Personally, i think that 'split personality disorder' is a decently fitting term for this disorder, though "multiple personality personality disorder' also makes lots of sense.
However, these terms have been used in movies and TV shows, to display the disorder in a negative manner. That is quite offensive [just like saying all ____ people do XYZ which is something bad, illegal], and we all know that can't be true. there are _______ people that are good and hard working people that would never hurt a fly.

Not everyone would be offended by the term you use to refer to this disorder (my fiance is one of them). They will get upset (to put it lighly) if others would say the disorder is not real, that they're faking it.
As a sidenote, there ARE folks who would fake having this disorder, but i'm not sure why. That is also offensive.
GhostInaShell
What a wild ride the comments were lol
Congratulations for the update ♥
Mochi
Nice!! I am super happy to see we’re getting away from that narrative with them.
It’s always nice to see the staff taking accountability and dusting old cobwebs when necessary!
Thank you for the transparency and the hard work!
Moiira
Thank all of you for your work!
Glacier
I've recently gotten to know persons with DID and it has honestly been a real struggle to try to get my head around it. Nothing I thought I knew about multiple personalities as a mental health condition were to date and it is a very rapidly evolving field.

But the important part I've learned is that you don't really need to "get" it. Just be nice and enjoy the company. Sounds like that's what the Subeta staff is trying to go for, too. Great.
bixbite
oh, cool. rock on!
JayPanda
@Darkrai okay, i understand it better now, i appreciate you taking the time to help me understand better. i dont usually ready anything on here, it just sparked my interest for some reason. i can see where someone would maybe feel a little ill about it.
i do apologize unless things are dumbed down for me or made for me to understand better it dont normally click for me. :3
Darkrai
@Desilyna @JayPanda Prefacing this to say I don't personally have DID and this is just my interpretation of the linked thread + quote from fun etc. but the initial complaint that started things was that the term "split personality" used in the achievement name is outdated and offensive to folks with DID. Additionally, the "good vs. evil" elements and "Cursed by an Evil Goddess" backstory was not idael because it feeds into existing stigma that people with DID face, even if Mori and Nori weren't necessarily meant to represent DID. And if you look at the updated Subetapedia entry, the characters are still present but without those negative elements.

I would definitely recommend reading the thread if you have more questions because a bunch of users who do have DID weighed in there on what their issues were with the previous portrayal and/or wordings
JayPanda
okay im confused, so dont come at me here cause im just trying to understand better. so they had a split personality, and and they have been on here since the beginning, and because there is people with split personality disorders, they didnt like that the characters did? question would people relate more to them and like that there was a character they could relate to, i have anxiety and nervous issues while welding depression as a grown adult like many many others alike have aswell. im dyslexic with adhd/bi polar so im not perfect by any means ive got a whole ball game for chemicals unbalanced in my brain. im just not understanding why so many people didnt like the split idea. like i said im bipolar i got be split myself i personally just enjoy and love this site with all the character and charm it has. im not worried about the little things like that maybe thats just me, either way i was going to continue to use the site and enjoy it regardless of this change tht im just now finding out about. im promise im inoccent in writing this just trying understand thats all.
JessieFae
Thank you so much for being so open about everything and willing to realize what went wrong and how to improve it. You've been nothing but respectful and kind during this transition!
Desilyna
But how was Mori and Nori even negative at all? I saw them as being two sides of the same person, nothing bad at all. People are offended by everything.
peachette
i will admit i was being very blunt and abrasive about this on the brainstorm thread.

so i want to say thank you for making the changes, and for the accountability as well. this post makes me feel like people were actually heard more than the last post did.

i'm proud of everyone who fought for this without letting it be forgotten.
Xezvi
Really pleased to see how the staff are responding to the community and following the users' lead on updating their old content. Also, very impressed with the willingness to accept criticism, change approach to conflict, and apologize in the comments in real time! As someone with a public-facing job, I know from experience that it is very hard not to escalate a situation when someone comes in to an interaction frustrated, especially if they put you on the defensive. Kudos to Amber for accepting responsibility and doing everything in her power to correct the situation.

I'm also very happy to be learning new things! I'm glad to hear the perspectives of community members and learn updated terminology. (The preferred collective unit is a System? Love that) I'll be excited to read up on this tomorrow when I'm not so sleepy, lol.
Pinocchio
I'd also like to learn what's to happen to the "Cursed" forum title, like others. If you change the title, please let us have a different way to obtain the Cursed title for different reasons. I enjoy that title and would be sad to lose it.
Pinocchio
Do Mori and Nori still share a body, or are they separate beings that rise with their respective time of day? I read the new subetapedia post, and it's a little unclear on that point. I have no experience with DID, so I can't speak on it, so I'll just say that I was attached to Mono Ri's original story and was wondering to myself if she'd ever find freedom... and now she has, so I can feel relief that she lived happily ever after now, hehe.

Can we get a plot involving these guys someday? It'll help us get acquainted with their new story, I feel like.
AnaSolidor
What a strange series of posts. I've seen actual criminals apologize less, and they were on the hook for jail time.
Archmage
@Ravage

I'm also wondering. Buuuut halloween/morostide is over there, so it would be a convenient time to give us a similarly named achievement, but making it unrelated to Nori and Mori.
Beldam
Thank you for this ❤️ my spouse has DID so this is really important to me.
foxfaeble
Thank you staff, for continuing to be truly inclusive and listening to users when issues like these come up. :heart:
Mimiryn
I have OSDD and I locked onto Mori/Nori a couple weeks ago when I started playing and was just having a conversation IRL with a friend about how I was thrilled to have some semblance of representation that I actually really liked even if it was still problematic. Beyond my expectations you've taken the time to update outdated terms and take responsibility for it, I am so in love with your commitment to changing and creating a safe place for people and the transparency you've provided here. I wish you nothing but success in the future.

With love from all of us<3
Khaiya
This site continues to impress me. :) The mindfulness, and inclusivity is amazing in a world that is getting scarier by the day. Thanks you Subeta staff, and @Amber for the explanation.
Ravage
Thanks for the updates on them. But do I get to keep my cursed forum title? It's the only one I use...
Captain
I haven't been around much so I missed that this was happening at all, so I'm pleasantly surprised! (As someone who's life is impacted by DID)

Thank you to everyone who worked on this, users and staff alike!
KarasuKitsune
ugh...
wyrm
thank you!! <3 (also "... always want to do everything at once" -- huge mood :pensive: )
Rat
thank you for the explanation in this post and taking accountability in the delay and the generic responses, i admit the situation was frustrating to me, i don't have DID but i have friends that do, and i also generally think that being welcoming and inclusive is very important, so i was happy to add my voice to the users requesting this change.

i do hope that the team takes this to heart, i know how much it sucks having a lot to do with a small team, but i do hope that you guys are able to address little things in a more timely manner going forward. as i mentioned (somewhat tangentially) on the mono ri board, it seems like the forums with requests for changes to items (namely the Item Name/Description Update thread and Make this a Book/Food/Minion/Toy thread) haven't had much attention for some time as well, I hope some time can be spent doing small changes requested there as well :)
sggkloosemo
Super cool of you to make a post and be so transparent about it.
Kallisti
Hooray hooray! I’m glad y’all did this.
Tiobe
In a world that is increasingly frustrating, it’s lovely to me that Subeta doubles down on their commitment to inclusivity 💗 awesome work, Amber (et al). and huzzah for new lore ✨
Serena
Thank you again Amber! Really glad that this has been tackled in a mature manner.
Someone
I was happy seeing them switched from being cursed and maybe this could be why. Dissociative disorders do get a lot of negative attention so glad there’s some positive for them 😊
Someone
I was happy seeing them switched from being cursed and maybe this could be why. Dissociative disorders do get a lot of negative attention so glad there’s some positive for them 😊
FyreNWater
Thank you for the updates. Love to see growth, learning, and changes for the better! Let's all strive to be inclusive and welcoming! <3
stars_water
@Amber Maybe this?
Cursed Gem

It looks related.
Runasutaru
@Amber
Oh. What a funny coincidence, then! I can't believe Nori and Mori caused you trouble at the last minute like that. Tsk! Naughty girls.
Amber STAFF
Someone brought this up in the discord, @Laurey! I think I'll end up removing it from the achievement and release it again in another fashion in the future. Maybe collection cursed antique items or something we have on site. I'll look into it when I'm back from Shabbat (which I\'m totally leaving to do now).

@Runasutaru Actually, it had nothing to do with the weekend quest. That's completely random and if anything was more of a hassle to deal with when updating everything today (changing the real time weekend quest instead of just setting it up for future instances). I did promise y'all by end of Summer and I did my best to meet that!
Runasutaru
I sensed the choice and timing of the weekend bonus quest was heralding the change (as per the most-recently promised date on the forums), and I'm glad I was right.

Perhaps I am mistaken in this observation, but the insistence on making the changes all in one go feels like perfectionism took hold of the staff. There are times where it's definitely worth working towards exceeding expectations and putting out pristine results, but there are others — like this one — where making the achievement-name change early on and then chipping at other sections over months and years would have yielded better results with both the writing efforts and the community; listening closely to users' wishes early on in the forum thread would've made that clear. Regardless, I am glad the change was made, overdue as it was.
Laurey
@Amber
The Duality Quests achievement (which is retired, so you probably need to select the "retired" option to view it even with the link) has had the achievement name updated, but the forum title associated with it is still the Cursed title.

I'm not sure how to best address this because the achievement itself is currently retired, so no one new can actually obtain it, and I'm sure some people who already have it really like the Cursed title and would want to keep it. So I don't know if some other achievement could be created that gives that forum title and just remove it from the old achievement? Not sure how all of that works on the backed, but it's just a semi-issue that still exists because of the changes (which overall I do agree with and am glad for staff listening to player concerns).
FCoD
Just one more reason why I love this site.
Narshe
I'm glad this topic was treated with the utmost respect and care, despite how long it took to address it. I hope others also understand why this change was made and see it isn't harming the site to be more inclusive and accepting of revisions. Change is good! Especially in this regard. ♡
Pandaslowpoke
@Amber

The Description for the Starlight Spirit from their quest shop has a typo/weird phrasing.It starts like the old description did, then jumps awkwardly to describing what the spirits do in a way that makes it ambigous as to wether it's talking about the spirit or Mori's spirits
Jayme
I love this, I love Subeta, and I love y'all... thank you <3
fun
thank you everyone for the positive response, and thank you to members of the DID community that have spoken up alongside each other to get this changed.
Amber STAFF
Thanks, @Avel. Updated that!
Avel
@Amber
The Duality quest shop has the Split Beanbag. The description seems fine but you may want to update the name to match everything else.

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