@Tribunal Oops, I must say that I totally concur. I'll implement that change right away.

Better late than never!

@Keith

Awesome! Can we no longer 'un-agree' though? I was going to try it just to see how the forums look now, and the box seems to stay checked no matter what I do.

I'm pretty sure it was working the other day but I won't swear to it. I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed, posts would still be counted under what it was at the time (and obviously what it was was agreed to, since the post was able to be made). I might just be crazy, but just curious if something changed.

Actually i dont go to think too much about to say..
I only join forums when i got a problem/dude
Only when was event forums (dance and etc)...
And only aleast for the post of subeta at minecraft...
Really i dont use too much forums and etc...
And i dont go to pretend sound smart, because im not care of too much...
Maybe the other 99% of people with do care...
I avoid any problem for myself out of this site and avoid it from my english because spanish is my mother talk...
Always changes are welcome...for end my comment...

@Snowflake
According to the Texas Penal Code, you can be charged with disorderly conduct if you do any of these in a public place:

1. Use “abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language,” of the kind likely to provoke a physical altercation. These are known legally as “fighting words.”

1. Make an obscene gesture that is likely to start a physical altercation.

There are more but I didn't want to take up a lot of space. So as ridiculous as it might sound. It is there. Sorry if it may seem a bit off topic but it was in response to Snowflake.

Polite was more the word I used for lack of a better one. I meant more "as long as I'm not trying to attack or offend anyone," or "as long as I am just trying to have a calm conversation or debate."

@Archimedes
Hahaha, I can't blame you. I actually do have a Tumblr account, I made it before things got the way they are now. I pretty much avoid logging in anymore, though.

Also, love your other posts. You basically said everything that I couldn't. And as another example, a lot of people seem to be overlooking it but I had often found that calling someone "too sensitive" was extremely offensive. I myself have been put into that category many times. It didn't exactly "offend" me, but it used to really hurt my feelings. Nowadays I do tend to take some offence to it though, because calling someone who is extremely sensitive "too sensitive" doesn't solve anything. Instead saying something like that just implies that the individual's personality trait is a "problem" or that it's "unacceptable" to others. I'm not making a huge fuss about it though, because I figure that most people probably wouldn't take me seriously.

Unless you're like me and you take the whole "being considerate of other people" thing too far, then you just wind up a quiet pushover with anxiety problems. That's not fun, or cosy. It's more like a snuggie of needles. Personally I'm trying to find a medium between thinking about others too much and not enough.

Anyway, took a good break from reading everything, came back and read the relevant comments a few times, then I went back and re-read the guidelines. They honestly make more sense now, but I do still think they could be improved. I think that things like "Our community is full of people who are just looking to have a nice time and escape from day-to-day drama, so please don't ruin the fun with a negative attitude when dealing with others!" might sound nice and positive to some, but but some others, especially people who may be lacking in confidence like myself, see that vague statement (and all of the endless ways one could unintentionally ruin another's fun) and immediately start freaking out and thinking things like "What if I mess up?!" Then everything from that point on is read through glasses colored by that fear. I think that's a lot of what happened with me, and it seems to me like the same has happened with some others here in this post. Some might argue that this notion is ridiculous, but I know that psychology supports it. My suggestion would be to make sure that the individual rules get to the main point first, instead of dancing around some fluff and getting to the real point last like they do.

I think everyone needs to understand that there's a difference between blatant censorship (which doesn't allow you to say what you think) and a push for positive thinking. These guidelines don't mean you can't have a negative opinion or be sad or angry. There's a contrast between being opinionated and being an absolute ass.

Sometimes you don't know the difference when you're angry or uninformed or hurt, and I think a positive push in the right direction isn't harmful, particularly in a small, private (and generally friendly) community like Subeta. If you're hurting or shaming someone else, their body type, etc. you deserve the inconvenience of reading these terms again. They're not long.

It's not so much censorship as it is more like reality. If you say to a person's face that you aren't comfortable with something about them, particularly something that makes them who they are, they're not gonna wanna spend time with you. Same rules apply, people. People who are arguing against this are people who want to be foul. Subeta's just saying find somewhere else to do it.

Looking forward to see how these rules will adapt with the community though. These sorts of things are hard to get right on the first try. Thanks.

@Konijntje
that is ridiculous. i don't know texas law but ppl say f word and curse all the time in the us. it's not something ppl get arrested for.

sorry, I meant "fictional character"

@delsomebody
As I stated I was not offended by it because I see that you meant no offense. (: You do not have to apologize for something like that. At least not to me.
I´m asking because the first time I posted in the forums I got a slap in the face by stating that I´m wary of extreme feminists and prefer calling myself a humanist and like to include all people.
I was heavily surpised by that discussion, let my tell you. I have not been called offensive and a terrible person before this fast simply by disagreeing with someone.
And it happened a second time not many days after in another forum on Subeta, just by stating my impression on the antique shop. I tried to give arguments instead of simply crying unfair.
The posts under the Shinwa revamp cemented it for me further, that I need clarification.
When you aren´t allowed to use the word "fat" anymore because someone not thin (and I´m not thin myself) gets offended by calling a non-fictional character fat and ugly (both words do not go hand in hand), yes, then I need those clarifications badly. Because I don´t know anymore what is offending and what is not. Honestly, to me none of the comments to the Shinwa revamp were offending.

@Archimedes

Sure, I'll apologize. I don't intend to come off as demeaning or completely flippant and since it was still perceived as such, I'm sorry. I'm pretty casual in my chatter because I tend to conduct myself in a way that's sincere but not overly serious since we ARE playing a game together, but that doesn't always translate to being well-meaning in everyone's reading. I legitimately and overall feel that people are overthinking this is all; you're concerned at what I said or how I said it, but I don't think within the context it would ever be perceived as ban-worthy because we're hashin' it out like adults with no petty slapfights or namecalling. :] This whole thing is not as slippery slope as most people are fretting about it being! It's just a reminder, I think, to be kind and be held accountable. One everyone can use, myself included!

Again, a sincere apology! I mean that. Feel free to message me if you've got more to hash out with me. That goes for anyone reading this. I'm a goon, but I'm a goon with a heart.

@Mayonaka
I forgot: There is a reason why I will never have an account on Tumblr (-;

@delsomebody
Your reaction to my post is exactly what I meant. I asked for clarification, I asked nicely for it and almost pleaded, and what I get is "duh, be quiet if you are not sure, if it is okay, what you are saying".
You are "attacking" me by assuming I´m always offending others and should examine myself and what I´m saying. You imply that there is something wrong with me/my writing in general.
I´m not taken seriously and If I were less sure of myself or more sensitive I could be offended now. Should you apologize now?

The same goes to @Keith. Asking for clarification and help does not mean we aren´t happy about the rules. Neither does it mean we don´t understand them.
There is no reason to be aggressive or demeaning in your answer and your answer might be percieved as such.
Beginning your sentence with "Le me be super clear" and repeating what other users said is exaclty that and not helping. You are treating us like we are some small stupid childs and don´t take us seriously either.
Should you apologize now too because someone might get offended at your words?

I´s clearly not as easy as you are making it. There are posts who ask for clarification because language is not only about flaming or shouting or swearing. You can imply, assume and belittle without calling someone a doofus or prick direclty to someones face. And that can happen with or without wanting to offend someone.
Comments which belittle and demean others, by implying they are stupid (childish, intolerant or something else) happen a LOT here to everyone who doesn´t share an opinion or asks for help. Too me it´s no problem because comments like that say more about the person who states them than the party who recieves them. I personally do not get offendend by them. But others might.

And I just would like to know if comments like that are except from the rules or not.

Opinions that are right or wrong can still be offensive even if stated politely. I've found Subeta to be full of self-righteous knights who like to demean and belittle a user for saying something that could be twisted to be taken gasp offensively. I've also found that like any internet community we have users that are overly sensitive. It'll be interesting to see if the people who do the reporting are just as bad if not worse than the supposed offenders.

Also, is there a system in place so that Staff do not handle cases involving their friends or people they dislike?

You don't have to apologize every time something you say offends someone else, though... Sometimes people are just really over sensitive. Half the comments in that shinwa thread, if the word "fat" was put into the sentence, suddenly people were crying they they were being personally attacked because they're "fatter" than the revamp. It wasn't intended to personally attack or offend that person, they took that onto themselves. It's not a case where you have to apologize to each person who took it to be about themselves or someone of their size... If you mention that a revamp looks tall in your post, are people also going to get offended because they happen to be tall? There's a time and place to require an apology for offending someone. If it's not an attack on them, I really don't think it's necessary. @Keith

If we're talking offensive comments and such, then quite frankly I find some of the comments on this very post offensive. A few people are sitting on their high horses saying they'll be happy to watch others get punished, like they're somehow exempt from the rules. I find that just as rude as people they're pretending to be above.

You may say it's easy to say something and not be offensive, but in my experience it can be a lot more easy to not do anything wrong and still be offensive. Lately I've had a lot of people twisting my words or making assumptions about me and getting offended, these same people have proceeded to attack me for their own misconceptions. Although I would imagine that as long as it's clear that those people are making assumptions, and as long as I was polite in my initial post, then I should be in the clear. Theoretically speaking, anyway. Even staff members are subject to human error.

And just to make the point, even if the staff can sort through any multitude of reports they get from people who feel offended, the fact stands that if the rules are made more concrete then they would likely have a lot less unnecessary reports to deal with. So not only would it be in our, the users', benefit, resulting in a lot less confusion and decelerations of censorship, it would be in the staff's best interest as well.

You guys can argue with those of us who feel like the rules are questionable all you like, but if there are already this many of us who can't clearly understand the rules then it's not going to spell anything good for the future. That's not to say that I don't appreciate those of you who are trying to make it more concrete, though. Even if you are being all "omg people" about it you still manage to help at least some of us form a better idea of what the rules are supposed to mean.

Then you clearly haven't spent much time on Tumblr;;

Thank you, based @Keith.

Let me be super clear. It's easy to be wrong and not be offensive. It's easy to be right and not be offensive. It's easy to state your opinion without being offensive. It's easy to understand why someone is offended by your posts and say "hey, I'm sorry that offended you, I get it and I wont' do it again" instead of digging yourself into a larger hole.

My friend who is a bee continues to make good posts on the subject. I trust bees.

Holy LOLy guacamole, people. Pretty sure if the staff gets a report, then looks at it, sees it's just someone steamed another user disagreed/a petty slapfight over wording/a misunderstanding, they're not gonna follow through with the report and just close it. The phrasing of the penalty system clearly indicates it won't be an automated system so you won't just get a ban out of nowhere because someone THOUGHT you were calling their dog ugly. If you're really that scared of how you'll be perceived for saying something, maybe don't say it! At all. This isn't as hard as you're making it out to be.

BE DECENT. That's all it is. You can still disagree, you can still debate, you can still offer negative, opposing and critical opinions. Just BE DECENT. Word stuff as civil as you can manage or just don't say it. Don't frame this as "WELL PEOPLE GET OFFENDED AT EVERYTHING, HOW IS THAT MY FAULT" or "PC GONE MAD, CENSORSHIP CENSORSHIP". This is just about treating other people nicely on a goofy pet/doll site and doesn't constitute this much hand-wringing.

Otherwise, maybe if you find you consistently bother people with an opinion or phrasing of yours, examine it? Apologize? Saying sorry ain't no skin off my nose. Try it sometime, it frees you. Empathy for other walks of life and views is cozy, like a snuggie. Let's all put on our snuggies. Our snuggies of understanding.

These seem REALLY vague. And way too easy to get someone you just plain disagree with in trouble for saying something you don't like, even if it's not hate speech.

I don't even interact on the forums most of the time, so these don't affect me. Good luck to all those who do, though. I hope nobody cries "bigot" or "bully" just because they don't like people disagreeing with them.

Honestly I get more upset with the people who go around policing saying "that statement is whateverphobic, you're an awful person" than the people who make the ignorant insensitive statement. It is demeaning and often just aggravates the conversation. Mods should really only be the ones to do this, I feel like for the most part users don't really treat people who (possibly accidentally or unknowingly) make insensitive statements with any respect after said statement, which just brings everything else further down.

I have a question:
There are some people who want to be offended by everything whatever words are used. They WANT to misinterpret what is said to feel self rightous and being able to answer with an holier than thou attitude.
My question (or rather plea) is: Will you give some examples what is still okay please?
I haven´t seen too much bad or hurtful language so far but a lot of people who are offended easily by every trifle or someone simply stating facts.
It would be helpful to have some explicit guidelines because on no other site I have seen the people get offended this easily. And I´m 32 years old and have some experience with the internet.

(I´m not sure anymore, this post won´t offend some users as well)

Two things:
(1) Negativity is a part of life. I hope we don't force everyone to pretend we live in Spongebob's brain.

(2) I hope we realize this doesn't mean that just because someone is offended by something that the other person is wrong. Being a diverse group we will all say things that offend others. Let's grow up and get over it. (this does not pertain to offensive language, just differing opinions)

I think that "religion" and "lack there of" should be included with the "Don't be that guy" part. As a person of faith, I feel terrified to post anything around Subeta. I have for years because of the sheer amount of negativity and hatred I've felt directed at people of faith.

-I agree with this post. Also, I'm glad for this, because I have met some...snotty people who were rude to me for like no reason what so ever. One of them even blocked me o.o..for no reason, lol. I just hope this don't turn people into being "report happy" though. Because there's always going to be one person (or people) who like to report things just because -.-. In any event, glad this is happening and I wish everyone a great time :)!!

Inflammatory words that are either injurious by themselves or might cause the hearer to immediately retaliate or breach the peace. Use of such words is not necessarily protected "free speech" under the First Amendment.

"Be decent to everyone and make this site a pleasant experience for all. :)"

"CENSORSHIP!!"

Laffo. You guuuuuys.

Also, @TrueRukiaFan , I pick up what you're puttin' down, but I think the overall intention of it being included in the rules is simply because a lot of folks like to blindly invoke it as to the reason they can say whatever they want and not face repercussions. I guess if you get to that part and didn't have that context, it reads kinda weird, though, you're right.

Also also, for the question regarding intent vs. offense, it's pretty easy to navigate! Be accountable for what you say, even if it ends up being ignorant, admitted or otherwise. Someone telling you gently (or bluntly) that what you said is considered offensive, even if it's to a subgroup or culture you're uninitiated on, just be like, "Oh, sorry, my bad. I didn't mean to ruffle feathers and now I know that!" Just conduct yourself civilly. Also, have a little faith in the folks behind the report system; if you're afraid of being reported for something you didn't mean, pretty sure that's gonna come out in the context when it's under scrutiny for being flagged. The only way I could see someone ending up in baby jail for it is if you're just ostentatious about being a tit even when corrected or confronted.

Question!

How do these guidelines work when it comes to perceived offence vs. intended offence?
For instance, what if I take offence to being called an American, while someone else might call me one in the kindest and most complimentary of ways, what happens then? Can I tell the person to stop it and report them resulting in the post deletion or will the intent matter and as such nothing will happen? Likewise, on the 'fruits for insults' thing I saw here, if I call someone an apple, intending horrible offence, but someone does not perceive it as offensive at all, will a UA have the post deleted and warn me, absent a report from the 'not-offended party' or will I instead 'get away' with the offence?

I ask because I want to know what happens when I intend no offence whatsoever, but someone takes offence. Because it happens.

Because there is a difference between being "critical" and being "mean-spirited"

You can be critical of how the site is run, but you don't have to be mean-spirited when you do the criticism.

Yay, censoring! It's fun being afraid of posting anything mildly negative! Here's some friendly criticism, though: how about sharpen up those rules so people know -exactly- what they can and can't do, rather than having every situation come down to a matter of opinion? Right now you're just whipping your entire community into submission so nobody says anything "negative" at all. Honestly, it's tyrannical. I hope you don't consider this to be bullying.

@delsomebody
Here's another thought. Regarding the new guidelines, Freedom of Speech shouldn't even be an issue.

While amendment I expressly forbids Congress from restricting free speech, it is perfectly legal, and in fact common, for private parties to enter into binding agreements that restrict otherwise protected speech. Non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) are one example of this. In the case of the new guidelines, as a condition of using the site, you are expressly giving up rights to certain rights of expression. Subeta is within their rights to require this, since it is a private site.

@delsomebody
My point is that Amendment I of the constitution expressly forbids Congress from abridging free speech. There is nothing in the constitution that gives the government the right to prosecute anyone for expressing their opinion. In fact, that sort of thing was common in the British legal system of the time in regards to the colonies.

As I said before, The new guidelines make a lot of sense, even if they are still too vague. I simply think that the 'freedom of speech' part should be re-worded, as it implies a government power that simply does not exist.

Good thing, I have no issue with the rules.

Would be great if this would magically bring more life into the forums again, feels like a walk through Atacama Desert each time I go there. diehard optimist

I like that very much but when you have agreed there should be something happening on the site with the rules that shows that it has worked. Maybe a text could appear that says thank you, have fun or something. Just to make this more clear that you have done something.

Really happy this has finally been introduced! If you are the sort of person that can't communicate without insulting someone then I look forward to not seeing your posts anymore. It's great to see Subeta policing some of the nasty things that go on around here - it had honestly gotten a bit out of control what people could get away with.

And there are situations where I have posted something and then been like 'wow awena thats a bit extreme um geez' and regretted it, I'm glad that these rules will force people to think twice and possibly make them step away and cool down before replying to something.

The reason i was inactive on here for the past 2-3 years was because of the stinking attitudes of a lot of people on the forums, every posted turned into groups all ganging up on one poor person and it was so ridiculously petty. i'm glad these guidelines are here to help remind people Subeta is an online community and does not exist solely to amuse a few people who feel like being nasty from the safety of their own home.

@Tribunal Oops, I completely agree. I'll make that change now :)

I just want to say I really love how these were written. They are so easy to read and sound so nice rather than a list of don't do this etc. ^_^

I think these are all fair points. Basically you're just expected to show common courtesy to fellow site users and imo that should be something that happens automatically, be it written up somewhere or not.

What if I'm being offensive against myself 0.o
could other people report me?

I know, I tend to be harsh on "non-brainier me"

Don't be a banana, you know I Kumquat you

I'm glad this was updated, The Subeta community here is super nice, but on Tumblr people were so hostile towards me for not knowing what "Arid" was. Real classy -_-.

Sadly they can't control what Dumblr users do :B.

...but my username is a fruit name... now I'm going to be so confused...

Just: Thank you. One of the biggest things that has bothered me about Subeta over the years is the way people treat each other here, and it just seems to get worse. This is a huge step in the right direction.

I play on another site that has a general rule of "no mean-spirited comments toward another user" and it pans out just fine. The majority of people know how to handle each other, and the ones who don't are always the ones that end up getting multiple bans. The community there is loved by everyone for the friendly additute, and people can vent offsite if they really need to.

I like that here you'll restrict access to the parts of the site, it's a much better alternative than cutting them out completely. :)

@InSaNe Fun is for grown ups. You still have a few more years pat pat :3

Is this like a TOS that no one ever reads?

Keith's birthday.. Happy belated!

PS.. On the guidelines I check then click the button at the bottom and get nothing. Now all I see are checked guidelines. Hope that works.

These guidelines seem simple enough to me. I doubt Subeta UAs are interested in micromanaging every interaction of every user, so I don't really see the problem here. These are the most basic rules that really just say "you can disagree on things, but don't be a dick about it." Seems pretty reasonable to me.

On another note, hope you had an awesome birthday, Keith!

It gets a little problematic though when perhaps you're having trouble explaining exactly what you don't like, like perhaps you try to explain it but you fail to do it well. That's certainly what I wound up doing in the comments of the Shinwa update. :/