Dance Groups!
Get ready to revolutionize your Masquerade experience! I'm excited to announce our brand new Dance Groups system - a new way to dance, chat in the forums, and collect those sweet sweet dances with your fellow Subetans!
Dance Groups are regular forum threads at their core, but with a special live chat component that refreshes automatically (like the shoutbox). It's still just forum posts under the hood - but with real-time events to keep the conversation going.
These dances are on a separate timer from the legacy site so you're only increasing the tokens you're bringing in 😉
We're also hoping that seeing those familiar avatars in your dance groups reminds you to say hi to friends and feel a little like you're hanging out together. The social connections are what make these events special! Leave that profile comment, say hi to your online friends!
NPCs will activate their powers when paired, and they might even leave to join other groups - so you'll need to experience different groups to see all the abilities!
Just a little bit of personalization 🎨
This system is currently in testing phase, so timing and features may be adjusted based on your feedback.
🤖 How It Works
Join a dance group and let the 🤖 Auto Dancing Machine do the work! Every 5 minutes, the robot automatically pairs up two participants who haven't danced yet, ensuring everyone gets equal opportunities for tokens - even when you're offline 🫨!Dance Groups are regular forum threads at their core, but with a special live chat component that refreshes automatically (like the shoutbox). It's still just forum posts under the hood - but with real-time events to keep the conversation going.
These dances are on a separate timer from the legacy site so you're only increasing the tokens you're bringing in 😉
- Fair pairing system ensures everyone gets their turn
- Real-time group chat to connect with fellow dancers
- Participate in up to 3 dance groups (5 for Gold members!)
- Groups need at least 10 people to keep things exciting
🎯 The Goal
This system is designed to help everyone participate in Masquerade events, especially those who can only pop online for a few minutes at a time. You can still collect tokens and stay connected with your group even with a busy schedule, which I know is where most of us are these days.We're also hoping that seeing those familiar avatars in your dance groups reminds you to say hi to friends and feel a little like you're hanging out together. The social connections are what make these events special! Leave that profile comment, say hi to your online friends!
✨ Special NPC Guests
Dancing NPCs may join your groups and bring magical powers:- ⚡ Speed Boost: Reduces machine intervals from 5 to 4 minutes
- 👥 Group Dance: Enables threesome dancing with 3 participants
- 🍀 Lucky Charm: Reduces breakdown chances and improves repairs
NPCs will activate their powers when paired, and they might even leave to join other groups - so you'll need to experience different groups to see all the abilities!
🔧 Machine Maintenance
Sometimes the Auto Dancing Machine breaks down and needs fixing! When this happens, group members work together to repair it. Don't worry - it's just a simple button click, but it keeps groups active. The bigger the group, the more people will be needed to fix the 🤖.🖌️ User Popover Improvements
Speaking of seeing friends - we've made some exciting improvements to user popovers based on your feedback! You can now:- Choose between hover or click activation at your popover settings
- Customize your popover background color on the same page - this is how other users will see your popover!
Just a little bit of personalization 🎨
🎯 How to Join
Ready to start dancing? Here's how:- Visit the Masquerade Forum on Kumos
- Look for topics marked with ♪ Dance Group
- Join an existing group or create your own!
This system is currently in testing phase, so timing and features may be adjusted based on your feedback.
Posted by Keith
Load this on 🆕 Kumos site
stars_water
Actually is this because I wasn't chatting? I don't normally chat much, including while dancing actively. I've been quite active on the site, using all three options we have for dancing as well as working on my wardrobe and wishlist and repeatedly checking in on my cosmetics. It's not like I wasn't on the site, or even like I wasn't on kumos.
I'm gonna come back to mention this, as well. I'm in one group that's quite small. When I look at the numbers....
707 dances...
668 dances...
619 dances....
54 dances...
50 dances...
I'm the one with 54 dances, and I was the second person to join the group, with it being just me and the OP for a while. (OP is the one with 707 dances.) The distribution of dances is very definitely not equal.
707 dances...
668 dances...
619 dances....
54 dances...
50 dances...
I'm the one with 54 dances, and I was the second person to join the group, with it being just me and the OP for a while. (OP is the one with 707 dances.) The distribution of dances is very definitely not equal.
@Soleta I have the same problem - I lost track of which groups I was in. I'm still getting dances but can't find which thread it's coming from, and now there are so many, it's buried in the mix. There should be some sort of notice linking to any dance group you've joined, just as point of reference on being able to get back to it later. @Keith
How do you CONTINUE to dance in your group? I auto did 41 and now it's stalled and I don't see an option to continue in this group. The other members have 100+
I like the dueling but i've both won and lost to Boudewijn countless times now and the relevant achievments remain unachieved??
I'm sad to see complaining here about this new feature! I'm having fun. I like the duels. Someone shared below a hack to avoid them if you want (hit the 'back' button) but it makes it interesting. I am sad the dance machines aren't breaking down anymore. I don't get notifications anymore anyway. It was the only way I could find the groups I'd joined, and it was fun too. Now I have no idea how to find them. But I like this way of gaining tokens.
I have a ton of steamworks tokens, but as someone else said, if you have too many, donate them! Either to users in need or to the donation shop. I just donated 30 bags of tokens this way! I would love for this feature to be used at New Years, when I have a harder time gaining tokens due to the holidays. THAT would be amazing!!!
I also really appreciate that some of this is happening on Kumos. I admit I don't really like the site too much yet, but I've enjoyed the duels, dance groups, and being able to accept 10 dances at a time. It's nice to feel more natural about using Kumos in this way, beyond the wardrobe. This is a great way to get users used to using Kumos and to help with the transition. Great idea!!
Anyway, I just wanted to share some positivity. I'm really enjoying the new features. Thank you!
I have a ton of steamworks tokens, but as someone else said, if you have too many, donate them! Either to users in need or to the donation shop. I just donated 30 bags of tokens this way! I would love for this feature to be used at New Years, when I have a harder time gaining tokens due to the holidays. THAT would be amazing!!!
I also really appreciate that some of this is happening on Kumos. I admit I don't really like the site too much yet, but I've enjoyed the duels, dance groups, and being able to accept 10 dances at a time. It's nice to feel more natural about using Kumos in this way, beyond the wardrobe. This is a great way to get users used to using Kumos and to help with the transition. Great idea!!
Anyway, I just wanted to share some positivity. I'm really enjoying the new features. Thank you!
This is a wonderful idea for those of us who have no time to participate normally. However I do want to add to the current comments that a way to know wich groups you joined would be nice as the notif for the dance bot breaking gets lost in the notifs for all the dances you do and one of the groups I have joined has been 'broken' for 2ish days I think because I guess the other dancers didn't keep a tab open or missed the notice that the dance bot was in need of repair.
@hannahharmin Dance groups are signaled though! Look for those with a musical note!
If you were talking about knowing in which ones are you dancing atm, I agree, a was to know in wich groud are you dancing would be appreciated.
If you were talking about knowing in which ones are you dancing atm, I agree, a was to know in wich groud are you dancing would be appreciated.
I love the dance groups but the dueler guys HATES me. I had to do like 4 duels in the span of 5 mins or so ;_;
I love the idea of the dance bots. It's a great way to dance and accumulate trinkets when you are not on the site. As for them breaking down....It's a fun aspect but if you don't have enough active participants in the group it just sits there. One could jump into another group but then there's no way of knowing which forum posts are dance groups and the time needed to go through the posts really can be frustrating.
I love that we are still able to ask users to dance on our own and mystery dance while the bots are working.
I love that we are still able to ask users to dance on our own and mystery dance while the bots are working.
Can we please PLEASE get Boudewijn as a challenger in the Battle Coliseum? I NEED to beat him up x.x
Well, either that or reduce that timer to something like 5 minutes and not 15 minutes because I keep losing to him...
Well, either that or reduce that timer to something like 5 minutes and not 15 minutes because I keep losing to him...
As much as I like this new features I'm very sick of the Boudewijn guy and having to duel every dance I get. I was thinking about leaving the dance group that I'm in because the Boudewijn guy is super annoying.
Looks like this might be down right now? Came online after a few hours to no dances for the first time since it launched, and when I go to any thread on the forums I get the “ Oops! Something went wrong” kanis
TIP to avoid Boudewijn:
If you have more than 10 dances waiting, accept all 10, then on the duel screen hit the back button in your browser. This will avoid the duel, and Kumos will properly update your dance count. This allows you to accept 10 a time and no need to deal with Boudewijn. I blasted through 50-something this morning and it worked perfectly.
If you have more than 10 dances waiting, accept all 10, then on the duel screen hit the back button in your browser. This will avoid the duel, and Kumos will properly update your dance count. This allows you to accept 10 a time and no need to deal with Boudewijn. I blasted through 50-something this morning and it worked perfectly.
you know what would redeem this event??? just turn it into some plot where the main challenger, Boudewijn, is finally defeated and we dont have to lose out. Most of my battles with him have been at a loss and honestly, what's the point? Holiday events are suppose to be fun and the aspect of battling isn't necessarily bad but the fact most of us have more loses than wins speaks a lot! at least a petty prize or some achievement???? I like to be upbeat and positive but im feeling discouraged atm...
Today, in my extremely busy life, I had about 5 minutes to check this site, catch up on dances. Saw I had 10 dances.
Go to clear dances but instead got this duel, which is just a rock paper scissors game with no skill, just pure random.
Lost of course, got told I was ashamed, and told I couldn't accept my dances for 15 minutes.
I genuinely have no idea what you guys are going for with the duel feature but it does not pair well with autodance. Just my feedback.
Go to clear dances but instead got this duel, which is just a rock paper scissors game with no skill, just pure random.
Lost of course, got told I was ashamed, and told I couldn't accept my dances for 15 minutes.
I genuinely have no idea what you guys are going for with the duel feature but it does not pair well with autodance. Just my feedback.
A new project, does this mean you've finished literally any other project or aspect of kumos? Or perhaps this one will be completed to fruition before the next one is begun?
@Archmage Considering that neither of us, when it comes down to it, has nothing more than anecdotal backing for their views, it's sill to keep arguing about something like this. I will not stop dancing, regardless of the trinkets, because I love the social aspects of all of Subeta's events! The smelting idea is a good one, I'd vote for it!
I can't get any of the dance group links to load. I get an error every time.
Oops! Something went wrong
We've encountered an unexpected error while processing your request. This could be because of an error on this page, or something broader. This is our generic "we don't have a more specific error to show you" page. It could _really be anything_, so please let us know in the forums.
Oops! Something went wrong
We've encountered an unexpected error while processing your request. This could be because of an error on this page, or something broader. This is our generic "we don't have a more specific error to show you" page. It could _really be anything_, so please let us know in the forums.
@Lawnbuddha I am a somewhat active, but mostly casual player and I'm nowhere near "thousands of trinkets ". Also I don't consider my trinkets to be "largely useless". If you don't like to have "thousands of trinkets" just donate it, problem solved, if anything I'd gladly take the extra trinkets anyone may have and find to be useless. lol
The idle-dancing is here to help the casuals and people with little time to play and get trinkets, if that's not you and you already have enough trinkets, you don't need to participate. It is possible for you to deal with your excess currency without devaluing other people's currency, inflation is never a solution.
Perhaps making special currency smeltable would be a better fix for the very active users who somehow have thousands of trinkets laying there after buying the whole shop, including consumables/books for all their pets multiple times.
The idle-dancing is here to help the casuals and people with little time to play and get trinkets, if that's not you and you already have enough trinkets, you don't need to participate. It is possible for you to deal with your excess currency without devaluing other people's currency, inflation is never a solution.
Perhaps making special currency smeltable would be a better fix for the very active users who somehow have thousands of trinkets laying there after buying the whole shop, including consumables/books for all their pets multiple times.
Still getting an ungodly amount of duels 😩 Yesterday I could ignore them and click "return to Masquerade" and keep dancing, but today I'm getting challenged on every single dance again. I feel like there's no escape from Boudewijn 😓
@Archmage - absolutely that's what I'm suggesting, as I see users starting to pile up thousands of trinkets that are largely useless once everything has been purchased in the two shops. I completely understand your desire for that not to happen. I think this should be opened up to a larger discussion and/or vote.
@AUXIN Thanks for the link, this option got me no duels 100% the times :D
@Lawnbuddha Are you suggesting they inflate the prices, nullifying the benefits of the new idle dancing feature, making it a must-do if you don't want to fall further behind in currency as now everything is more expensive? Also causing people to feel like they need to expend all their saved currency before the inflation happens, thus stocking everything like it is toilet paper a few years ago? Because if that's what you meant by the cost going up accordingly... No, just no. Inflation sucks lol
@Lawnbuddha Are you suggesting they inflate the prices, nullifying the benefits of the new idle dancing feature, making it a must-do if you don't want to fall further behind in currency as now everything is more expensive? Also causing people to feel like they need to expend all their saved currency before the inflation happens, thus stocking everything like it is toilet paper a few years ago? Because if that's what you meant by the cost going up accordingly... No, just no. Inflation sucks lol
I'm going to copy-paste what I wrote in the forums:
I like the new Kumos Masquerade dancing pages... but ain't the popups during the duels on top of the dialogues redundant? They're saying the same things.
https://i.imgur.com/KuOYyQp.png
I like the new Kumos Masquerade dancing pages... but ain't the popups during the duels on top of the dialogues redundant? They're saying the same things.
https://i.imgur.com/KuOYyQp.png
Still haven't had a single machine break in any of my 5 groups - I guess it's been over 24 hours. That's a nice thing to keep people busy in some way after all and should be kept, just not happen too often.
i dont like the battle segment for the dances as it said i lost and went empty handed. not fair and not very inviting, actually gives me anxiety with what i pick. prior to that it was fine system..and i dont like being re-directed to kumos either. i avoid it when im on my mobile.
I guess I'm just failing at this. My dancing isn't showing. I have no requests on Kumos. It keeps telling me I have 0 minutes. What the heck am I doing wrong?
does anyone know if there's any downside to accepting dance invites one-by-one on non-kumos subeta - apart from it being time consuming obviously, i mean does bulk accepting through kumos give out more trinkets overall or anything like that...?
at this point i'd honestly rather do manually than dueling with boudewijn after every dance ;-;
i'm enjoying the dance groups & auto-dancing besides that though, i think he just needs.... tuning.... a lot of tuning
at this point i'd honestly rather do manually than dueling with boudewijn after every dance ;-;
i'm enjoying the dance groups & auto-dancing besides that though, i think he just needs.... tuning.... a lot of tuning
we left a dance group to join a different one, but for the past 2 hours kumos has said we are still 3/3 even though we double checked we had left the first group.
anyone else having this issue?
anyone else having this issue?
This has been a great way for me to get more trinkets, but the broken duel system is SUPER annoying. I click on one weapon and it chooses another. I constantly lose and have to wait which again is annoying. And even if you manage a win you don't get any of the achievements!!! or even just a simple prize. Get rid of Boud whatever and make them a challenger instead!!!
Auuuugh, it's just contant error messages trying to get into the forums. Anyone know a workaround or if this is being fixed?
Duels aren't fun anymore, I hope it gets adjusted and fixed soon. I've just been ignoring them at the moment. They don't stack, do they?
Well, now I know you can dance with NPCs through these groups, just got one from Melody. I wonder which NPCs are currently available and if more will be added. It would make sense to add the Yun Enterprises NPCs if they're not there already.
Well, now I know you can dance with NPCs through these groups, just got one from Melody. I wonder which NPCs are currently available and if more will be added. It would make sense to add the Yun Enterprises NPCs if they're not there already.
Small update to my last post - just lost duels 4 times in a row. Really kinda wish there was some kind of "mercy" mechanic after a certain point lol
Duel Shame Timer,
i am tired of get this event three times in a row, just let me dance alone.
i am tired of get this event three times in a row, just let me dance alone.
The dueling was more fun when there was a chance at a trinket bag with a win...but getting a win and no trinkets? No reason to duel...
Love this feature!
Not sure if this has been brought up, but the bot repairs on smaller groups. We have a group that only has like 6 members but still requires 4 people to repair the bot, which is over half the group. Maybe some sort of repair scaling for smaller groups?
Not sure if this has been brought up, but the bot repairs on smaller groups. We have a group that only has like 6 members but still requires 4 people to repair the bot, which is over half the group. Maybe some sort of repair scaling for smaller groups?
This is such a great idea. Unsure how fairly the bot pairs dances though. I'm in a group where everyone had 6-10 dances each aside from 3 people, who all only have one. Weird.
If this has been brought up a apologize, but it seems like the 'main pages' for the Dance Groups might have a bug in the creators original forum-like post at the top. If the person has a "dance with ___" in their post it seems like I can invite them to dance infinitely with zero cool down. It even says 'you have 0 min until you can dance again' I haven't confirmed if the other player receives every single request however.
In addition like the post below me, I have noticed the robot not breaking today as well, but they did once earlier this morning. It might be from you guys changing things for all I know.
I LOVE the Dance Groups. they are fun and are making feel a lot more comfortable on the new site. I don't mind Kumos personally, I like them both for different reasons and I am patient with the bugs- I like seeing the process!
In addition like the post below me, I have noticed the robot not breaking today as well, but they did once earlier this morning. It might be from you guys changing things for all I know.
I LOVE the Dance Groups. they are fun and are making feel a lot more comfortable on the new site. I don't mind Kumos personally, I like them both for different reasons and I am patient with the bugs- I like seeing the process!
Hey there.
Love the new mechanic with the dance machine robot. Yesterday the robot was breaking a bit too much, but today it seems more durable... I'd say... today it feels like, it hasn't broke at all... hard to tell because my notificacions are a bit too much right now. I hope this gimmick don't get removed or something, I think it's kinda nice having to group togheter to fix it, and prevents a bit too many idle... I know it is about idle dancing but a bit of intereaction is good, you know what could happen with automated stuff, it could create a bit too much of lounge and steam tokens and unmotivate people to play, I dunno.
On another note, the duelist (forgot his name) that appears when you enter the ballroom, has show his face to me zero times at the subeta legacy site, but, now that the kumos site has a ballroom it pop ups a bit TOO MUCH.
Besides an achievement there isn't anything else with him, so, I think it could be toned down a bit.
I enjoy enter the ballroom and peek my avatar and the other dancer avatar thogheter and how they fix, not even for the duelist, but now... I kind of being pushed to not to or else I could went into a 15 minutes ban e_e
Great stuff to have the NPCs showing into the fun, besides, it's kinda funny when it read "an anon dancer asks you out" and near to that, there is the wizard avatar XDDD
Love the new mechanic with the dance machine robot. Yesterday the robot was breaking a bit too much, but today it seems more durable... I'd say... today it feels like, it hasn't broke at all... hard to tell because my notificacions are a bit too much right now. I hope this gimmick don't get removed or something, I think it's kinda nice having to group togheter to fix it, and prevents a bit too many idle... I know it is about idle dancing but a bit of intereaction is good, you know what could happen with automated stuff, it could create a bit too much of lounge and steam tokens and unmotivate people to play, I dunno.
On another note, the duelist (forgot his name) that appears when you enter the ballroom, has show his face to me zero times at the subeta legacy site, but, now that the kumos site has a ballroom it pop ups a bit TOO MUCH.
Besides an achievement there isn't anything else with him, so, I think it could be toned down a bit.
I enjoy enter the ballroom and peek my avatar and the other dancer avatar thogheter and how they fix, not even for the duelist, but now... I kind of being pushed to not to or else I could went into a 15 minutes ban e_e
Great stuff to have the NPCs showing into the fun, besides, it's kinda funny when it read "an anon dancer asks you out" and near to that, there is the wizard avatar XDDD
First all machines break repeatedly, now after having been absent for a few hours, not a single one broke!
I'm getting a lot of pairings - I think a tad too many! On the other hand, I only found a single Mystery dance upon return!
I'm getting a lot of pairings - I think a tad too many! On the other hand, I only found a single Mystery dance upon return!
So, I have been testing and at least for me, the option "Accept X dances" seem to always get me a duel. The option "Accept & view Ballroom" very often gets me a duel. The option "Accept dance" sometimes gets me duels. I don't know if it is just my luck tough.
overall, i do enjoy this new auto-dancing thing. but the duels need either an option to decline or overall be (temporarily?) disabled.
he pops up far, far too often (i seem to be getting him for just about every dance offer i try to accept on kumos, which is really annoying and inconvenient) and doesn't seem to be rewarding people properly for their wins, from what i can see, and i do feel that the 'shame timer' is.. a bit questionable. it needs to be shortened, as it goes against the whole 'letting even busier people participate more' idea that seems to be the intent behind it.
he pops up far, far too often (i seem to be getting him for just about every dance offer i try to accept on kumos, which is really annoying and inconvenient) and doesn't seem to be rewarding people properly for their wins, from what i can see, and i do feel that the 'shame timer' is.. a bit questionable. it needs to be shortened, as it goes against the whole 'letting even busier people participate more' idea that seems to be the intent behind it.
I keep getting B too every time I try to accept dances and it’s a little annoying. What is dueling him supposed fo do???
About the new dance floor: I like the people being in different positions rather than just lined up along the sides watching you, BUT the one directly behind the dancers has got to go. Lots of people like to take screenshots of their HA with their partner, and having someone smaller right in the middle is like a photobomb every time.
I also keep getting the dueler, & he takes all the dances, then fines me 15 minutes. I have won once or twice, there is no bag of trinkets like prior years.
Noticed an odd thing. I'm in three groups-30 people, 44 people, and 50 people, and the 50 people one has almost double the dances of the other two. Not complaining, but it does seem disproportionate
Okay, I tried again and here's what I noticed! Got through two whole dances without getting B. I like the ballroom size being bigger and the HA's seeming smaller on it. Really emphasizes the grandeur of the whole thing. However, the flipped HA's are distorted - too skinny - and they don't drop the foreground and background items like the should, so frames, etc. are still in the picture.
When I got B, I won! However, it wasn't due to what I was choosing; he acted like I'd chosen a different weapon for his dialogue all three times. But it did let me go to the dance floor when I won, which was good. I did not get a bag of trinkets for a prize as is customary, however.
When I got B, I won! However, it wasn't due to what I was choosing; he acted like I'd chosen a different weapon for his dialogue all three times. But it did let me go to the dance floor when I won, which was good. I did not get a bag of trinkets for a prize as is customary, however.
Got a Boudewijn duel and he'll only tie me - like 15+ attempts and he just picks whatever weapon I pick
Well, looks like I'm not the only one having problems with the duellist, I wish I could just block him from appearing as he takes all dances if I lose, and seems to give nothing in return if I win, and also appears every time. It is quite annoying.
Okay, so I've also gotten B every time I've opened a dance in Kumos. Once I lost and once I won, but both times it acted like I lost. I guess it's just the machine dances that open there? I guess it's fair to lose them since they've built up because I've only had a limited amount of time to be on Subeta the past couple days due to work, but gosh I'd be mad if it started happening with the ones I've asked people for and where they've asked me. So I hope some dances continue to stay off Kumos for now.
Also would like to request Jack Cardale as an NPC dance partner!
Also would like to request Jack Cardale as an NPC dance partner!
I'm having the same issue as the other users below. Where I'm getting the duelist every time, be it for 1 or 10 dances. I also didn't get a reward for winning.
I also had a problem where after accidentally leaving the page during a duel, it seems I automatically lost, including losing all my dances. It also doesn't make much sense to me that if you lose to this guy once, he can take 10+ dances away at once and not just one.
Aside from that though, I love this idea!
I also had a problem where after accidentally leaving the page during a duel, it seems I automatically lost, including losing all my dances. It also doesn't make much sense to me that if you lose to this guy once, he can take 10+ dances away at once and not just one.
Aside from that though, I love this idea!
Dancing group feedback:
- I like the idea of the groups, where are people you want to interact, the live group chat and Machine maintenance^-^ (it fits the theme of steampunk/cyberpunk - it will fun also with some mini games or with buying items from Steamworks Menagerie)
- Too many auto dancing invitations - I have joined 2 dancing groups today and I got so many of them O.o (+ there is normal mode dancing + mystery dance). It makes little bit overwhelmed. -> It would be better (for me) if there were more people in a group and auto dancing timer were longer, so ther will be less of them
- I like the idea of the groups, where are people you want to interact, the live group chat and Machine maintenance^-^ (it fits the theme of steampunk/cyberpunk - it will fun also with some mini games or with buying items from Steamworks Menagerie)
- Too many auto dancing invitations - I have joined 2 dancing groups today and I got so many of them O.o (+ there is normal mode dancing + mystery dance). It makes little bit overwhelmed. -> It would be better (for me) if there were more people in a group and auto dancing timer were longer, so ther will be less of them
@moonstarr Yeah hopefully they read through and make some adjustments, I love the autodancing feature and don’t mind the repairs even at all, just needs some tweaking.
Thank you! It’s a book very close to my heart, I’m still deciding between a few illustrations from my edition I’ve had since I was 2 to get tattooed next year 🩵
Thank you! It’s a book very close to my heart, I’m still deciding between a few illustrations from my edition I’ve had since I was 2 to get tattooed next year 🩵
@allnightforever I agree. It would be nice for the timer to be a shorter length of time. It's nice to have the ability to accept ten invites at once, though. That would be a good element of this to keep once the bugs get ironed out.
Oh! That is a neat reference to the velveteen rabbit on your profile... err... should I say the velveteen kanis?
Oh! That is a neat reference to the velveteen rabbit on your profile... err... should I say the velveteen kanis?
@moonstarr I agree, and I wouldn’t even mind the timer that much if it was 5 minutes instead of 15, that’s way too long. Especially if you have a job/family/school and therefore limited time to do the event. It’s my third time in a row almost of losing and I’m now losing my mind already lol. They also should make it clear if you actually get a reward for winning or not.
@allnightforever That's understandable. I don't love the new format, either. It would be great to have the option to turn down the duels and not be penalized. The group dance feature is great, especially for those of us who are busy, but Boudewijn is really putting a damper on the party. The "shame timer" might also better be called something else... some players here are still pretty young, and it's not great for the site to reinforce the idea of "shame" considering that.
I'm hopeful that staff reads these comments and can make some adjustments while these features are still in the testing phase.
I'm hopeful that staff reads these comments and can make some adjustments while these features are still in the testing phase.
@moonstarr I also don’t think I’ve gotten any rewards for beating him unless it’s just trinkets now instead of bags so I haven’t noticed them in the pile of trinkets in my inventory. It’s starting to really, really annoy me 💀
@Yuzuru I haven’t even done bulk dance accepting and I get him every other time. It’s honestly ruining this for me.
@Paradox Yeah, Boudewijn is driving me nuts with these constant challenges. It was cool on the main site where it was a random, once-in-a-while event where if you won, you got a bag of trinkets and if you lost, you were relieved of just a few. Now, it seems so hard to win a duel we are essentially forced into and if we win, I don't think there's a bag of trinkets anymore. The "shame timer" for losing would be fine if it was more like five minutes instead of fifteen. Right now, it won't even let me accept invites I have because of that.
I wish there was an option to decline the duel, I keep getting them every time I bulk accept my dances now and I'm not really interested, especially since the feature lags a lot for me and is slow to complete.
Otherwise I really enjoy the automated dance system, it helps a lot when I no longer have time to participate in events as much as I used to in the past.
Otherwise I really enjoy the automated dance system, it helps a lot when I no longer have time to participate in events as much as I used to in the past.
Just adding to the missing trinkets after winning the duel! I also appreciate the high risk/reward with the 15 minute cooldown on dancing, it would be nice to be able to decline the duel though!
I'm not sure I'm 100% understanding how the auto dancing actually works. I see it does eventually randomly pair me and I see the events in my notices on both here and Kumos... but seems I can only accept one of the events to get my tokens but not any of the others?
Last night my first duel was with "Reginald", not Boudewijn?? LOL Also am confused on why there is no option NOT to duel. I haven't done duels in forever because I really don't need the extra trinkets - I am only doing the dance groups for the experience of something new.
And the dance shame cooldown kind of messes with the whole group dance to get more dances thing, if you can't accept dances because you are on a duel-time-out!!
And the dance shame cooldown kind of messes with the whole group dance to get more dances thing, if you can't accept dances because you are on a duel-time-out!!
I like the lore reason with not being able to accept dances for a bit after losing a duel, but 15 minutes is a bit excessive? I think 5 minutes would be less frustrating.
I seem to be getting duels every time I finish accepting my dances on Kumos (I do them one by one).
I received tokens for accepting multiple dances at once, but not Boudewin's Bag of Trinkets for winning.
Why do we have to click "next" with him, instead of only choosing the weapon for the next turn?
Why do we have to click "next" with him, instead of only choosing the weapon for the next turn?
Anyone else getting challenged by Boudewijn every single dance? I clicked "Accept All" to accept 4 dances, but I feel like I lost the tokens for every single one because of Boudewijn.....is that how it's meant to go? :(
More feedback: Boudewijn challenged me to a duel in Kumos. I wasn't given an option to decline the duel:
Round 1: I picked the weapon on the right; Boudewijn picked the center weapon. Score: me 1, Boudewijn 0.
Rounds 2-5, we tied. Four times in a row!
Round 6: I picked the weapon on the left; Boudewijn picked the center weapon. Score: me 1, Boudewijn 1.
Even though the score was tied, Boudewijn ended the duel with the take-my-trinkets-I'll-find-another-dance message. But no trinkets appeared in my inventory.
This was _very_ buggy: (1) The option not to duel is gone. (2) The duel ended prematurely. (3) No reward was given even though Boudewijn conceded.
Round 1: I picked the weapon on the right; Boudewijn picked the center weapon. Score: me 1, Boudewijn 0.
Rounds 2-5, we tied. Four times in a row!
Round 6: I picked the weapon on the left; Boudewijn picked the center weapon. Score: me 1, Boudewijn 1.
Even though the score was tied, Boudewijn ended the duel with the take-my-trinkets-I'll-find-another-dance message. But no trinkets appeared in my inventory.
This was _very_ buggy: (1) The option not to duel is gone. (2) The duel ended prematurely. (3) No reward was given even though Boudewijn conceded.
I'm not doing any more machine repairs my fingers r tired and I have to go to town tomarrow
"💭✨ Masquerade Memories - The ballroom seeks stories! Please respond to: "How are you enjoying the masquerade so far?" (2 responses needed)"
Answer this where????
Also yeah, agreed that the strain on the system seems a bit much. I can't get the normal dance invites to work anymore on legacy subeta, guessing it's a more high-traffic time.
Answer this where????
Also yeah, agreed that the strain on the system seems a bit much. I can't get the normal dance invites to work anymore on legacy subeta, guessing it's a more high-traffic time.
"Choose between hover or click activation at your popover settings"
@Keith I don't think this is working properly? When you announced this via forums (the day before this post), I changed my preference to click instead of hover, then fixed the popover window colors. The next day I went to do my quests and noticed the popovers were back on hover, so I fixed it again. And then today, it was like that again, and yeah. The saved preferences aren't sticking for me, and I'm not clearing cache or anything. Using desktop, firefox 140.0.
@Keith I don't think this is working properly? When you announced this via forums (the day before this post), I changed my preference to click instead of hover, then fixed the popover window colors. The next day I went to do my quests and noticed the popovers were back on hover, so I fixed it again. And then today, it was like that again, and yeah. The saved preferences aren't sticking for me, and I'm not clearing cache or anything. Using desktop, firefox 140.0.
Auto Dancing Machine Repair has started in 'Funky Town Revarie'! It needs 12 people to participate. Click here to help!
I can't, I already opted in ages ago, I am the only one... Is this event coming in as a reminder?
I can't, I already opted in ages ago, I am the only one... Is this event coming in as a reminder?
Questing has become almost impossible - every move mega slow - the dance groups traffic seem to be too hard on the system.
Why is every dance group link opening in a new window?
Why is every dance group link opening in a new window?
The Auto Dancing Machine has paired you with Sarenrae! Click here to dance!
This all of a sudden leads to Kumos - can't use that.
However, if a legacy invitation comes in, it'll respond to the normal accept button.
This all of a sudden leads to Kumos - can't use that.
However, if a legacy invitation comes in, it'll respond to the normal accept button.
To everyone struggling to accept all of the dances: You can accept one dance, and then just refresh the tab from there. It will accept each dance in turn, without having to do a bunch of pointing and clicking and closing new tabs.
I would really love if there was some kind of auto-accept or bulk accept for dances - I logged off for a couple hours and then opening Subeta again, I had to individually go through every auto-pairing to accept and it's.... tedious. :(
cool Idea, tysm for doing this. i wait with join till it works without error and -- Kumos site is not my favorite, sigh. i like subeta 🥀
Thanks for the new way to dance! This explains why the old forums kept breaking. I've given it a try but I'm not sure if I've done it right. Ijoined the group but don't see anyone in my group that's online right now. I'm just going to let it sit and see what happens. Thank you for this new option, I'm sure it will be wonderful once all the kinks are worked out. In the meantime, I'm going back to legacy and Mystery dance with everyone. :D :heart:
I’m really enjoying how the new dance groups system works! I’ve been stubborn about accessing the site and forums via the new Kumos layout, but the dance feature has gotten me to start adjusting.
I got an invite to a 3 person dance, but there was no 3 person dance when I accepted all the dances, so I'm not sure where it went! But it's a cool idea even if it doesn't quite work as I expected.
Agreed with much of the existing feedback: Please give us an easy way to see what dance groups we are in with links to each. Clarify in the instructions what to do to join a group (after clicking on the group in the forum, scroll down to the Join button and you can join it if it isn't full & you are eligible).
I'd like if the new dance requests hid who asked you to dance but instead said what group the dance request was from. And open in the same tab rather than a new tab, like others have said above, that would also be very helpful.
Agreed with much of the existing feedback: Please give us an easy way to see what dance groups we are in with links to each. Clarify in the instructions what to do to join a group (after clicking on the group in the forum, scroll down to the Join button and you can join it if it isn't full & you are eligible).
I'd like if the new dance requests hid who asked you to dance but instead said what group the dance request was from. And open in the same tab rather than a new tab, like others have said above, that would also be very helpful.
@Keith thank you for fixing the robot and this new group dance is awesome because I am always busy or in town shopping so ya it helps alot
Keith
STAFF
Not sure what is going on with the robot! I just repaired all of the groups automatically, and have turned off the code that makes the robot break until I get a chance to dig in more!
@Treeboa The legacy site (subeta.net) cannot get new features added to it. It's code base is too old, and it is literally not supported. Only new features will be added to Kumos.
I'm really sorry - I'm a single person working on a website with a code base that's been around for 20 years, this is what we've got. I'll continue to make improvements to Kumos, and try to address your feedback specifically, but hundreds of users use it a day :/ It's where I will be writing new Subeta features.
@Treeboa The legacy site (subeta.net) cannot get new features added to it. It's code base is too old, and it is literally not supported. Only new features will be added to Kumos.
I'm really sorry - I'm a single person working on a website with a code base that's been around for 20 years, this is what we've got. I'll continue to make improvements to Kumos, and try to address your feedback specifically, but hundreds of users use it a day :/ It's where I will be writing new Subeta features.
More feedback: I'm getting a javascript error when clicking on the 'repair the machine' button. I can give more information about the error if needed.
This new dancing mechanic is neat - it helps us get more tokens and engage with the other dancers. I'm afraid that the event battle opponents may have been forgotten in the process, though. That's what I was looking forward to most about the holiday. Hoping they still are released for an extended period even beyond when the masquerade ends so that we have lots of time to make it through the gauntlet!
Be alot better if kumos didn't keep logging me out it takes forever to log back in to be the 3rd person to help repair the machine
I'm really enjoying this event so far! I agree that it's nice for those of us that can't spend a ton of time in groups manually posting every day! The only thing that would make it better is not having each proposal from the dancing event open up a new tab each time! Not sure if that's possible!
I can't even get into my wardrobe to put a mask on XD I also missed a lot of the event since I have been swamped with work so this is neat but still need a mask I am guessing.
This is really neat but also frustrating. The kumos site is sooo laggy for me. I get the notification to fix the dance machine right away but thankfully the group I'm in seems to be quick on it because by the time I get anything to even load they've fixed it. Managed to get in a couple of times though so I'm trying. I feel like I've gone back to dialup.
for some reason the timestamps on the messages of the live chat are set to GMT (without DST), I'm currently in GMT+2, so those timestamps don't line up with my nor with subeta's timezone.. kind of confusing
Just want to say, this is something that really makes me happy as a longtime subetan who has seriously struggled the last 5+ years with some of these holidays I love but require a massive online presence, dancing, TOT and kissing being the main things. I'm hopeful that this will work well and be replicated in some form for future holidays so us working/parenting/ trying to stay afloat humans can participate and not feel so behind. :)
I hate all the tabs that open when you accept a dance. Can there be a "Accept All" dance button that tally how many dances you've accepted?
I noticed the repair bot breaks down during inactive times, when dance members are sleeping. Is there not a way to have the dancing feature break when everyone is active?
I tend to avoid Kumos because the site is harder to navigate and it doesn't feel like legacy st all. I wish it were easier and faster.
I'm loving the group event. I hope we see this again during future holidays!
I noticed the repair bot breaks down during inactive times, when dance members are sleeping. Is there not a way to have the dancing feature break when everyone is active?
I tend to avoid Kumos because the site is harder to navigate and it doesn't feel like legacy st all. I wish it were easier and faster.
I'm loving the group event. I hope we see this again during future holidays!
Wow, I absolutely love this new feature. I hope we continue to see group activities like this in future events (especially if it's not all on the Kumos site!). :-)
I also second what some other users have mentioned: find the kumos site a bit harder to navigate and also it is so slow that I avoid it at all costs right now.
I also second what some other users have mentioned: find the kumos site a bit harder to navigate and also it is so slow that I avoid it at all costs right now.
I've just realized that the dance bot is still able to break even if it's already broken. So after a few hours, if repairs aren't complete, it basically just gets reset back to 0. I've had a couple of groups now where we only needed one more member to repair and didn't get it.
Exactly how is this "inactivity" system supposed to work? Do inactive members get automatically removed from the group? If so, when? If not, are leaders expected to remove them? Is there any way for the leaders to even track who's been active and who hasn't? Doesn't this ultimately just hurt the active players more than it blocks the inactive ones? Considering that members have to log in and choose to join these groups in the first place, and dances have to be claimed while the event is still running, is there even really a purpose for this system? It's supposed to help members who don't have time to play events completely, aren't members who have the time to log in and join but not to come back frequently kinda the target audience? But they're the least likely to help with repairs so if there is an auto-boot system they get the worst of it.
Also the bots seem to break on a fairly regular basis and so far I've seen it happen twice (each, in all of my groups) during low-activity times on the site so no one's winning.
Exactly how is this "inactivity" system supposed to work? Do inactive members get automatically removed from the group? If so, when? If not, are leaders expected to remove them? Is there any way for the leaders to even track who's been active and who hasn't? Doesn't this ultimately just hurt the active players more than it blocks the inactive ones? Considering that members have to log in and choose to join these groups in the first place, and dances have to be claimed while the event is still running, is there even really a purpose for this system? It's supposed to help members who don't have time to play events completely, aren't members who have the time to log in and join but not to come back frequently kinda the target audience? But they're the least likely to help with repairs so if there is an auto-boot system they get the worst of it.
Also the bots seem to break on a fairly regular basis and so far I've seen it happen twice (each, in all of my groups) during low-activity times on the site so no one's winning.
+1 to stars_water, San, Pinocchio's comment. I'd love to have a list of groups I've joined.
For now I'm using the notifications on legacy, or my profile "Recent Posts"
For now I'm using the notifications on legacy, or my profile "Recent Posts"
@ Treeboa - you can just neglect the Kumos site after having joined dance groups and accept on legacy. The new tab is a tiny bit annoying, I agree, but I usually just let dances accumulate (delete the events) and accept all dances in one or 2 goes daily, just backtabbing from ballroom to the accept button - this will one by one work down the list of your invitations until you get to the end with a "you haven't been invited" result.
... I found the repair button! Scrolling way down to underneath all the member headshots!
Kumos again lacks "usability" in the forums as well.
The initial post already takes up the whole screen, then srolling more than a screen past all the headshots, which, as everything on Kumos are widely spread, taking up wayyyy too much space for every participant, then user chat side by side with system events, next screen size holds the dance log - which is redundant, given that is part of the event log.
Kumos again lacks "usability" in the forums as well.
The initial post already takes up the whole screen, then srolling more than a screen past all the headshots, which, as everything on Kumos are widely spread, taking up wayyyy too much space for every participant, then user chat side by side with system events, next screen size holds the dance log - which is redundant, given that is part of the event log.
I love the idea just mine says Machine Needs Repair n I'm the only one helping repair it
This is a mess with having to try to log in to Kumos, to make everything there watchable, only to be sent back to Legacy and then back to Kumos. Clicking the repair button isn't working, or it takes 10+ minutes, by which time others have already fixed it, new tabs opening all the time that you have to adjust one by one to make it watchable...
It is a nice idea, but it isn't usable when done on Kumos, at least not for me. Now I'm trying to leave all the groups, but I have no idea which ones I joined. :p I should have known better then trying out new Kumos features. It's the same every time. I really can't understand why you keep adding new stuff to it instead of making it working for everyone. So many people have problems with it, it's full of half-working stuff and still you keep adding more stuff that's only working half, or is working for some people and not for others...
It is a nice idea, but it isn't usable when done on Kumos, at least not for me. Now I'm trying to leave all the groups, but I have no idea which ones I joined. :p I should have known better then trying out new Kumos features. It's the same every time. I really can't understand why you keep adding new stuff to it instead of making it working for everyone. So many people have problems with it, it's full of half-working stuff and still you keep adding more stuff that's only working half, or is working for some people and not for others...
The machine (at least ours) brakes A LOT. I think it was at least 3 times within an hour. I followed the event link (which means I need to change my browser, because Kumos layout still doesn't work on Opera and Seamonkey). Except for once, I beleave, others had already repaired it. Last time I came to the group (on mobile, because I was in bed already - had to tilt the phone for viewability, but at least the transition to Kumos worked) I would have been the 7th of 8 dancers needed, however could not click the button - or what I thought was the button.
Was on board til I saw it was on the new site. It’s far too glitchy and migraine inducing for me. I’ll pass. Rather stay here and get less dances/tokens. Happy for everyone else though. Seems like a very cool idea
Some feedback: When you get an event that you've been selected for an auto-dance, the link opens in a new window, which is inconsistent with the behavior of links in other Masquerade events. I had quite a few extra browser tabs by the time I noticed. I'd prefer _not_ the event links spawn a new window.
@gemajgall
I would agree there’s a lot of tokens for the price of items, but some of us have like 18+ pets and want them to gain as much intelligence as possible so I have to buy all the books for all my pets lol then it barely feels like enough currency.
I would agree there’s a lot of tokens for the price of items, but some of us have like 18+ pets and want them to gain as much intelligence as possible so I have to buy all the books for all my pets lol then it barely feels like enough currency.
Ten friends? .... .... ...... :'D At least there's always the possibility of joining a group open to all. Not sure we really need this for this event currency, but I suppose any attempt at injecting the forums with more active is a good thing.
This sounded interesting until I read at the bottom that you have to be on the new subeta. Sorry but I don't like it. Oh well no group dances. That's OK.
I'm sorry, this is cool for other people, but my gosh this stuff feels overwhelming to me. It reminds me of the Melody group gift exchange, I get how it works, but feels like a lot, even though not supposed to be. For Masquerade, I click to do mystery dances, then accept on the rare occasion someone invites me, but that's it. The chat feature makes me anxious, talking back and forth in real time, I understand we don't have to do that, or any of this, just to say how considered.
As I have said, I don't like the Kumos layout, I'm sorry, but it does not feel intuitive to me, especially for mobile. Among other things, I don't understand why we can't see all our pets on our profiles, why there is no option for YouTube video, or why our profile doesn't carry over (I realise we could copy and paste, but still confuses me, and still other points). Perhaps, as it changes, will get to where like setup, but that is how I feel at this point.
I am mentioning because along with this not being my type of thing, I am avoiding going to the Kumos site as much as possible, and if/when I eventually have to stay over there, I will decide whether it is worth it for me.
Sorry for somewhat negative post, just reminded me of frustrations I have with direction of site.
All that being said, I'm glad most people are enjoying this!
As I have said, I don't like the Kumos layout, I'm sorry, but it does not feel intuitive to me, especially for mobile. Among other things, I don't understand why we can't see all our pets on our profiles, why there is no option for YouTube video, or why our profile doesn't carry over (I realise we could copy and paste, but still confuses me, and still other points). Perhaps, as it changes, will get to where like setup, but that is how I feel at this point.
I am mentioning because along with this not being my type of thing, I am avoiding going to the Kumos site as much as possible, and if/when I eventually have to stay over there, I will decide whether it is worth it for me.
Sorry for somewhat negative post, just reminded me of frustrations I have with direction of site.
All that being said, I'm glad most people are enjoying this!
this has been a really nice feature to have! i was able to wake up, go to work, and come back with like 30 dances all done for me. it feels balanced and fair; 30 dances is probably what I would have managed on my own in that same time frame tbh
I'm not sure if the idea's already been tossed out there, but it'd be nice if the sidebar alerts told me what dance group just partnered me. The Auto Dancing machine just tells me what players I've been paired with, and not what group. ^^
I've joined some groups, have already forgotten what groups I've joined, don't know how to re-find them besides clicking forum posts and looking for my own name, and I couldn't find a button to leave once I'm in. :) But that's ok I'm having fun.
been in a group for a bit and it seems to be working
the only thing is i wish i didn't have to manually refresh the page to see dancer updates
the only thing is i wish i didn't have to manually refresh the page to see dancer updates
Is there a way to leave hearts on other users avatars on kumos yet? I love that feature as a way to pay a quick little compliment, especially while dancing on the og forums.
Also perhaps an avatar contest to get our NPC friends dressed for the occasion?
I'm really excited about the dance groups! They seem fun!
Also perhaps an avatar contest to get our NPC friends dressed for the occasion?
I'm really excited about the dance groups! They seem fun!
Dang it! It loaded once I posted. There is an actual Join button once you scroll past all the headshots in the "Dance Card" section that you click on to join. There's so much text that I always miss stuff here.
Instructions unclear. Is there a BUTTON or Link to press or click to actually Join anything. Do you just click on a thread title and just leave that page open to count as "Joining" a dance group?
Think I found where the smaller groups are not better. When the bot breaks, if your group is smaller, there is less chance people will be online to fix it
Maybe a time cap on broken dance bots, Keith? If the idea is to get people who are not online a lot some dances and what not I mean. Or perhaps less people needed to fix them in smaller groups?
Maybe a time cap on broken dance bots, Keith? If the idea is to get people who are not online a lot some dances and what not I mean. Or perhaps less people needed to fix them in smaller groups?
I love this! However I agree with @stars_water that having a list of what groups we're in would be great, and confused why smaller groups are better but the default is 50 people?
I have two points.
- We could use a way to easily see what dancing groups we're in. It would make it easier to keep track of the 3-5 we're allowed to join, and similarly easier to leave and move to a new group as suggested in this post.
- Right now it seems like having a smaller group is more advantageous, which seems counter-productive to the intent of the setup.
- We could use a way to easily see what dancing groups we're in. It would make it easier to keep track of the 3-5 we're allowed to join, and similarly easier to leave and move to a new group as suggested in this post.
- Right now it seems like having a smaller group is more advantageous, which seems counter-productive to the intent of the setup.
This is a really awesome new feature, I'm glad to see something to help those who don't have much time for dancing or who need lots of trinkets for missed years
@Keith
At this point, I like how the bots, mystery dancing, and regular dancing is working together. I can still participate in contests while being involved in other dances. It's great!
At this point, I like how the bots, mystery dancing, and regular dancing is working together. I can still participate in contests while being involved in other dances. It's great!
Sounds fascinating!
But I'm surprised Masquerade is the one to test this. IMHO, it seems like we have a ton of Masquerade currency (judging on price) compared to Vesnali or Survival or anything else.
But I'm surprised Masquerade is the one to test this. IMHO, it seems like we have a ton of Masquerade currency (judging on price) compared to Vesnali or Survival or anything else.
@Jess Thank you for the help! :D I'm watching the page of the group I joined now, and so far the only critique I have is that I wish the page would update itself. I've been physically refreshing it every now and then to see who the next dance partners are. Hopefully that's ok to do? I'm under the impression it's just like a tab you leave running in the background, and I'm good with that, but I'm curious XD
But everything else about this new feature seems really cool! I got the notification for my first dances just fine (though I wasn't expecting it through the legacy site, thank you for confirming it's supposed to work that way, lol). I like that there's a little User Chat box, even if I probably won't use it all that much.
But everything else about this new feature seems really cool! I got the notification for my first dances just fine (though I wasn't expecting it through the legacy site, thank you for confirming it's supposed to work that way, lol). I like that there's a little User Chat box, even if I probably won't use it all that much.
@Rakumel @Solas
The dancing part is automatic. It’ll pair two people from the group and will send them each an invite from the other person. These will go into the same dance queue we use on legacy Subeta every year (over here).
The only part you really need to do is 'repair' the bot when it breaks every so often - you’ll receive an event in your sidebar. Once a certain number of group members click the button to repair it, the bot is good to go again :D
The dancing part is automatic. It’ll pair two people from the group and will send them each an invite from the other person. These will go into the same dance queue we use on legacy Subeta every year (over here).
The only part you really need to do is 'repair' the bot when it breaks every so often - you’ll receive an event in your sidebar. Once a certain number of group members click the button to repair it, the bot is good to go again :D
Just joined a group. Still not entirely sure I understand how all of it works, but I like the idea!
Keith
STAFF
wow that is a wild attempt at scode from me, i haven't tried using the ul/li tags in a long time and now i remember why