Sebastian Phoenix has been tinkering away all weekend on a plan to raise the User Shop Limit to 50,000,000sP per item. He worked very hard, and the Subeta Senate passed it without any problem, as long as it continues to benefit the economy.
For those of you will run around screaming like you've just had your heads chopped off that this will ruin the trades. The trades are for trading. As in, items. For items. And other items. And maybe sometimes.. more items.
Posted by Keith
IcyMist
I like it better this way. Like Xarii said, you won't have to wait forever for the user to accept your offer.
Uhg. I'm tired of this. "Economey, economey, economey." is that all anybody cares about now, money and bussiness? Look at the positives. Item hunt will be easier. You wont have to wait a week to get your item. And, besides, how's somebody who makes MUCH less than they could by undercutting, going to be able to afford to get a really nice item to drop it down in price?<br />
<br />
I love how this first half of comments praise this, and the second half hates it xD.
<br />
I love how this first half of comments praise this, and the second half hates it xD.
whine whine whine. Does the little one need his binky? get over it people. keith runs this site and has people that HE trusts to help him with these decisions. Good or bad it's Keith's choice to make. Keep playing or move on. Its a simple choice....
User not found:
Make this permanant <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_smile.gif" border="0" />
I really dislike this be able to price items up to 50mil in shop ....!st items get undercut...2nd I think it will be just a big big fiasco after so more time it is up. I say go back to 1mil I'm fine with that.
BlessedWrath... I wasn't trying to be arrogant and I didn't say it just because I disagree with you. I was simply saying that it would be unusual for you to restock and not notice how often things get undercut. It was not an attack on you in any way.<br />
<br />
Yes, people who undercut and autoprice without checking are lazy pricers. I was not saying that's what I do. I'm blaming them for the reason why items will decrease in price. There are many of them, and there have been items that were worth a lot and now are no more than 10k because of that reason. This is not an unreasonable concern.<br />
<br />
As I already said, nothing I said was meant as an attack on you. I am angry at this change and I have a right to be, just as everyone who has an opinion on this has a right to voice their opinion.
<br />
Yes, people who undercut and autoprice without checking are lazy pricers. I was not saying that's what I do. I'm blaming them for the reason why items will decrease in price. There are many of them, and there have been items that were worth a lot and now are no more than 10k because of that reason. This is not an unreasonable concern.<br />
<br />
As I already said, nothing I said was meant as an attack on you. I am angry at this change and I have a right to be, just as everyone who has an opinion on this has a right to voice their opinion.
For people complaining about the drop of prices of rare items, I have to say that you're probably not buying the really, REALLY, hard to find items. I'm collecting every plushie, beanbag, trading card, and book on the site. I regularly price every item I don't have yet in my collection. Since the shops have opened up to 50mil, I have seen books that were once 10mil jump to 40mil, plushies that were once 5mil sit at 50mil and my favourite, a plushie that was once buyable now sitting at 30mil.<br />
<br />
The 200 items that I'd like to collect, in a manner of 2 days, jumped in price a total of half a billion. That's billion with a B.<br />
<br />
The prices that are dropping are the items that people have dozens of, because they weren't that rare to begin with, they were just hard to find sellers online at the time to make trades with.
<br />
The 200 items that I'd like to collect, in a manner of 2 days, jumped in price a total of half a billion. That's billion with a B.<br />
<br />
The prices that are dropping are the items that people have dozens of, because they weren't that rare to begin with, they were just hard to find sellers online at the time to make trades with.
User not found:
I think this is great!<br />
People who are worried about low prices for rare items... that can happen on trades too!!! it's easy to accidentally trade an item worth 5million for just 3million (I've done it more than once--oops...) and in the same way there will be some low rarity cheap items that might sit in a shop priced at 25million (so then don't buy it! it's that simple) I don't see how this hurts the economy. <br />
<br />
I think the instant gratification of buying an item from a user shop (that used to ONLY be collecting dust in trades) is worth any temporary economy shifts!! <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_smile.gif" border="0" />
People who are worried about low prices for rare items... that can happen on trades too!!! it's easy to accidentally trade an item worth 5million for just 3million (I've done it more than once--oops...) and in the same way there will be some low rarity cheap items that might sit in a shop priced at 25million (so then don't buy it! it's that simple) I don't see how this hurts the economy. <br />
<br />
I think the instant gratification of buying an item from a user shop (that used to ONLY be collecting dust in trades) is worth any temporary economy shifts!! <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_smile.gif" border="0" />
User not found:
Axel, your string of logic does not make sense. How do the price limit update, the autopricer, and the undercutter mesh together in any way?<br />
<br />
It has already been said that autopricers driving an undercut price down further is only the result of lazy pricing. I believe this.<br />
<br />
On top of that, I find it slightly arrogant that you would assume I do not restock, on the sole merit that you happen to disagree with me.<br />
<br />
It seems to me that, if everyone was truly worried about "undercutting", they would actually pay attention to the prices in the shops instead of just clicking without thinking.<br />
<br />
Personally, it is my belief that the autopricer should be eliminated altogether. It's just too much trouble.<br />
<br />
I have said my piece, and I stand by what I have said.<br />
<br />
The Trades were being misused, on top of being ineffective. The problem has been solved. Personally, I won't complain.<br />
<br />
I'm waiting out this pseudo-apocalypse. After everyone loses their heads for a month or two, things will stabilize, and we'll have an even better site.<br />
<br />
That said...I'm leaving this post alone. I believe I've already said too much. Anyone wishing to have a legitimate discussion with me may bring valid points to my SMail. Any and all comments left on my homepage will be deleted.<br />
<br />
Curtains, lights, exit stage left.
<br />
It has already been said that autopricers driving an undercut price down further is only the result of lazy pricing. I believe this.<br />
<br />
On top of that, I find it slightly arrogant that you would assume I do not restock, on the sole merit that you happen to disagree with me.<br />
<br />
It seems to me that, if everyone was truly worried about "undercutting", they would actually pay attention to the prices in the shops instead of just clicking without thinking.<br />
<br />
Personally, it is my belief that the autopricer should be eliminated altogether. It's just too much trouble.<br />
<br />
I have said my piece, and I stand by what I have said.<br />
<br />
The Trades were being misused, on top of being ineffective. The problem has been solved. Personally, I won't complain.<br />
<br />
I'm waiting out this pseudo-apocalypse. After everyone loses their heads for a month or two, things will stabilize, and we'll have an even better site.<br />
<br />
That said...I'm leaving this post alone. I believe I've already said too much. Anyone wishing to have a legitimate discussion with me may bring valid points to my SMail. Any and all comments left on my homepage will be deleted.<br />
<br />
Curtains, lights, exit stage left.
Thanks for the update. Perhaps now I can find things easier. <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_smile.gif" border="0" /><br />
Oh and for those who don't believe me. Shop search "Heart Pasties". It's only one example out of many.
BlessedWrath... you apparently don't RS that much. When one person undercuts, other people autoprice their items and then their items are now undercut too. Pretty soon rare items become 10k sP. It's happened before. We all speak from experience.<br />
<br />
It was bad enough when they moved it up to 1,000,000. 50,000,000 will ruin everything rare. Believe what you want, but you'll find out soon enough.
<br />
It was bad enough when they moved it up to 1,000,000. 50,000,000 will ruin everything rare. Believe what you want, but you'll find out soon enough.
User not found:
giggles at the trading post is for trading comment
User not found:
im broke! how am i supposed to afford anything now!i just have 5k now!
User not found:
Ok, first off, I would like someone (WITHOUT the sarcasm and malice) to explain to me how increasing the maximum a person can charge for an item will psychically force EVERYone to lower their prices.<br />
<br />
An increase to the limit means that MORE expensive items can be sold. I cannot fathom how this change would brainwash people into randomly dropping their prices into the gutter.<br />
<br />
As was previously mentioned, if you don't like how low the price has gotten, DON'T SELL BELOW THAT PRICE.<br />
<br />
The badmouthed, so-called, "undercutter" is going to do what he does so that someone will snap up his item quickly. Let him. There are only so many items in the shops, and someone WILL need them eventually.<br />
<br />
Whatever happens to Subeta's economy, as a result of this change, is purely psychological. If most people claim that the prices will drop, those who believe it will be convinced to lower their prices so that they can sell before it "crashes".<br />
<br />
This is the same self-fulfilling prophecy that stock market gurus use to make themselves right. If you trust the man when he says the price will go up, you'll buy. So will millions of others. When that happens, guess what? The price goes up. He looks like a genius because everyone got fooled.<br />
<br />
STOP screaming "The End Is Near! Oh, Noes!" and START giving this a chance.<br />
<br />
Seriously, people, I haven't even looked at the shops since this change. Know why? Because I know it'll even out.<br />
<br />
I'm not pricing my items again until everyone calms down and stops allowing their actions and prices to be dictated by the opinions of a misguided public.<br />
<br />
Let's all take a step back and let the man do what he's meant to do.<br />
<br />
Don't like it? There've got to be half a dozen other sites out there to go to. Maybe one of them likes getting yelled at.<br />
<br />
...End Transmission
<br />
An increase to the limit means that MORE expensive items can be sold. I cannot fathom how this change would brainwash people into randomly dropping their prices into the gutter.<br />
<br />
As was previously mentioned, if you don't like how low the price has gotten, DON'T SELL BELOW THAT PRICE.<br />
<br />
The badmouthed, so-called, "undercutter" is going to do what he does so that someone will snap up his item quickly. Let him. There are only so many items in the shops, and someone WILL need them eventually.<br />
<br />
Whatever happens to Subeta's economy, as a result of this change, is purely psychological. If most people claim that the prices will drop, those who believe it will be convinced to lower their prices so that they can sell before it "crashes".<br />
<br />
This is the same self-fulfilling prophecy that stock market gurus use to make themselves right. If you trust the man when he says the price will go up, you'll buy. So will millions of others. When that happens, guess what? The price goes up. He looks like a genius because everyone got fooled.<br />
<br />
STOP screaming "The End Is Near! Oh, Noes!" and START giving this a chance.<br />
<br />
Seriously, people, I haven't even looked at the shops since this change. Know why? Because I know it'll even out.<br />
<br />
I'm not pricing my items again until everyone calms down and stops allowing their actions and prices to be dictated by the opinions of a misguided public.<br />
<br />
Let's all take a step back and let the man do what he's meant to do.<br />
<br />
Don't like it? There've got to be half a dozen other sites out there to go to. Maybe one of them likes getting yelled at.<br />
<br />
...End Transmission
I think I'm maybe the only one who is gonna say this, but I am now:<br />
"The Rich are gonna get Richer, and the Poor are gonna get Poorer"<br />
<br />
I say this because for those of us who can't price our items every day (I can only price mine once or twice a week because of work), this is like a death sentence for us, because our items will get undercut, and any items we may need for quests will be so expensive that we'll quit more of them than we can make profits, so I'm TOTALLY against this idea. Bad idea, Keith, bad idea.
"The Rich are gonna get Richer, and the Poor are gonna get Poorer"<br />
<br />
I say this because for those of us who can't price our items every day (I can only price mine once or twice a week because of work), this is like a death sentence for us, because our items will get undercut, and any items we may need for quests will be so expensive that we'll quit more of them than we can make profits, so I'm TOTALLY against this idea. Bad idea, Keith, bad idea.
<b>Quote By "waterfaerie":</b><blockquote style="padding:5px; line-height:15px; background-color: #FAFFFF; border: 1px solid #000000; font-family: georgia; font-size: 10;">Great. Now, instead of paying 500k for a r50 items I will have to pay millions <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_sigh.gif" border="0" />U</blockquote><br />
<br />
Exactly the point I was trying to make, but it seems like I lost out to the Praise Keith Even If He Causes Catnarok Committee and the Proud to Pay No Attention to Subeta's Economy Brigade.
<br />
Exactly the point I was trying to make, but it seems like I lost out to the Praise Keith Even If He Causes Catnarok Committee and the Proud to Pay No Attention to Subeta's Economy Brigade.
User not found:
benefit the economy??? ¿<br />
<br />
prices are dropping already <br />
<br />
to me ,if you look in the past it will deflate alot of prices,even the higher end items,if people want to move them,they'll go down a mill,then the next person will also,and so on like below i put that in my shop 5 minutes ago,2 minutes later thats what it look's like<br />
<br />
Mothers Day Tutani Plushies 3,000,000 sP 1<br />
Mothers Day Tutani Plushies 4,000,000 sP 1<br />
Mothers Day Tutani Plushies 5,000,000 sP 1<br />
<br />
right now there under 2 mill <br />
<br />
o no i don't agree with the new system,i would say a 2 or 3 mill max would be better,leave the trades for the bigger items .were all not billionare's <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_sad.gif" border="0" />
<br />
prices are dropping already <br />
<br />
to me ,if you look in the past it will deflate alot of prices,even the higher end items,if people want to move them,they'll go down a mill,then the next person will also,and so on like below i put that in my shop 5 minutes ago,2 minutes later thats what it look's like<br />
<br />
Mothers Day Tutani Plushies 3,000,000 sP 1<br />
Mothers Day Tutani Plushies 4,000,000 sP 1<br />
Mothers Day Tutani Plushies 5,000,000 sP 1<br />
<br />
right now there under 2 mill <br />
<br />
o no i don't agree with the new system,i would say a 2 or 3 mill max would be better,leave the trades for the bigger items .were all not billionare's <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_sad.gif" border="0" />
Mmmh. I like this idea. Its good for me. I dont have to wait for the person selling to get online and check trades, and such, and i only get my sP by art commishes, not by RSing...so I'm good.<br />
<br />
But for those sellers out there....good luck. <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/smiley_sadface.gif" border="0" />
<br />
But for those sellers out there....good luck. <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/smiley_sadface.gif" border="0" />
Worst idea ever. Does everyone see how horrible the economy became after they increased it to 1 mil.!? What is 50 mil. going to do to the economy?!<br />
<br />
All of my items in my vault, that I've been saving for MONTHS to rise in price will all just rot at 1 sP now. All the time I spent on this site earning sP and rare items will have gone to waste since nothing will be rare anymore.<br />
<br />
Don't the members ever get a say in anything?
<br />
All of my items in my vault, that I've been saving for MONTHS to rise in price will all just rot at 1 sP now. All the time I spent on this site earning sP and rare items will have gone to waste since nothing will be rare anymore.<br />
<br />
Don't the members ever get a say in anything?
User not found:
This is getting crazy. <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_shocked.gif" border="0" />
waterfaerie, I agree with you whole-heartedly. This is REALLY gonna affect how many quests one does, especially if you do Saggy's, the Wiz's, or even Chase's quests because some people will jack up the prices of easy-to-get items just cause they want the sP. It may make it easier for some of us to get our WL items (I'm still waiting for the person to get back online so I can get the BR Potion for Lone_Wolf_Cloud), but it's gonna make it a whole heck of a lot harder to price items for those of us who hand-price our items as well.
User not found:
I dunno, but I don't think people who have just had their heads chopped off are capable of screaming? Does that mean that Keith really expects people to be quiet about the whole thing, and is just trying to be tricky? wanders away scratching head
Not thrilled about this development, but I can see how it would be beneficial in some respects. <br />
<br />
On the other hand, a lot of items' value is already way down, and I can see this happening for pretty much everything now. <br />
<br />
Good for us as buyers, not so much as sellers.
<br />
On the other hand, a lot of items' value is already way down, and I can see this happening for pretty much everything now. <br />
<br />
Good for us as buyers, not so much as sellers.
QUOTE: "I think this is fantastic from a buyers perspective - I can guarantee an instant purchase and get the lowest price (please, I beg of you, never change that - it's a nightmare refreshing endlessly in hopes of finding a lower price). "<br />
<br />
Unfortunately, this is exactly what is happening on the Shop Search page right now. You have to keep refreshing to find the lowest price. This just started happening this morning. And it's horrible...
<br />
Unfortunately, this is exactly what is happening on the Shop Search page right now. You have to keep refreshing to find the lowest price. This just started happening this morning. And it's horrible...
Sorry if this has been covered already I haven't read all of the comments on here but I would really like to voice my opinion on this, which in my book is a big deal cause Im a laid back go with the flow kind of girl. <br />
<br />
As said on the news post "The trades are for trading. As in, items. For items." I can see the point in that but what about people like myself who put items up and ask for WL items + pure. <br />
I never expect my high valued items to sell for pure and pure alone. When I asked for WL items with pure thats what I expected to get. If i was to just trade those items for items and items alone I would never have sp to try and do the quests or much of anything else here.<br />
<br />
I guess im trying to say I can see how staff thought this might help us and how other users could like the idea but my personal opinion is that its a bad idea. Im sorry staff i know you try hard but this is the first change I've felt I really do not like.
<br />
As said on the news post "The trades are for trading. As in, items. For items." I can see the point in that but what about people like myself who put items up and ask for WL items + pure. <br />
I never expect my high valued items to sell for pure and pure alone. When I asked for WL items with pure thats what I expected to get. If i was to just trade those items for items and items alone I would never have sp to try and do the quests or much of anything else here.<br />
<br />
I guess im trying to say I can see how staff thought this might help us and how other users could like the idea but my personal opinion is that its a bad idea. Im sorry staff i know you try hard but this is the first change I've felt I really do not like.
I am...kinda apprehensive about the whole idea, to be honest. Does this mean that the value of items will deflate quicker this time? <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/smiley_sadface.gif" border="0" />
I like it. At first I thought it was a late april fool's joke xD But it'll add an interesting take to the subetan economy and break away from the too-similar-to-neopets thing. People are allowed to sell things for whatever price in REAL shops, so why shouldn't we here? <br />
<br />
<img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_heart.gif" border="0" /> -runs to price all trades-<br />
<br />
Also, it'll stop people complaining that things in trades never sell. =D
<br />
<img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_heart.gif" border="0" /> -runs to price all trades-<br />
<br />
Also, it'll stop people complaining that things in trades never sell. =D
YAY! I can buy/sell things easier now! This is awesome <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_happy.gif" border="0" />
I think this is fantastic from a buyers perspective - I can guarantee an instant purchase and get the lowest price (please, I beg of you, never change that - it's a nightmare refreshing endlessly in hopes of finding a lower price). <br />
<br />
But from a sellers perspective, undercutting could pose a problem. On the trades you never see anyone selling something for 2,999,999, to undercut their predecessor by a penny. On the trades the choice is more 'who's online now?' rather than 'oh! it's a penny cheaper!' so that <i>could</i> get out of hand. <br />
<br />
Overall, I'm very happy! Now just to wait for everyone to move their items into shops and the prices to re-settle <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_smile.gif" border="0" />
<br />
But from a sellers perspective, undercutting could pose a problem. On the trades you never see anyone selling something for 2,999,999, to undercut their predecessor by a penny. On the trades the choice is more 'who's online now?' rather than 'oh! it's a penny cheaper!' so that <i>could</i> get out of hand. <br />
<br />
Overall, I'm very happy! Now just to wait for everyone to move their items into shops and the prices to re-settle <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_smile.gif" border="0" />
This is awesome.<br />
Wonderful idea. Possibly the best one I have seen in some time.<br />
Keep up the good work, Subeta.
Wonderful idea. Possibly the best one I have seen in some time.<br />
Keep up the good work, Subeta.
<img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_happy.gif" border="0" /> <3 Sebastian <3<br />
It will make it easier to to buy /and/ sell. You could make 50 million from someone when your asleep. And you can buy lowest price without worrying that the person is offline.
It will make it easier to to buy /and/ sell. You could make 50 million from someone when your asleep. And you can buy lowest price without worrying that the person is offline.
Personally, I like the idea because I have a huge wishlist and unfortunately it is easier to just buy things out of shops than to trade...not because I don't like to trade, but because of things like people not responding to your offers/questions, time differences..etc. BUT, I will continue to keep my items that are selling for more than 100K in my trades in hopes that someone will want to trade items with me. I hate trading for sP to begin with. The world didn't end when the limit was raised to 1 million, I doubt it will now. Maybe I can get my hands on some of those retired Subautique pieces I'm missing <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_raspberry.gif" border="0" />
Not to worry oOBubble_PuddlesOo.<br />
<br />
Xarii, I would not look for the wig to come down in price any time soon. lol... it is one of the items that is in short supply and not likely to be undercut. IMO
<br />
Xarii, I would not look for the wig to come down in price any time soon. lol... it is one of the items that is in short supply and not likely to be undercut. IMO
I'm not too sure on this, with all those undercutters around..... but.......<br />
<br />
Maybe I'll be able to find a longhaired pink wig?
<br />
Maybe I'll be able to find a longhaired pink wig?
cetainly didn't mean to have my comment come off disrespectfully 2Tails...sorry you took it that way
"2Tails..I think you are taking this far too hard. Might I recommend a nice hot bath, some soothing music...and maybe a phone call to a friend you haven't spoken too in awhile. Let the calgon take you away...it will be ok "<br />
<br />
oOBubble_PuddlesOo, I would tell you to be kind to your elders but I think we're in the same boat though even with two teenage girls, I suspect I am still much older than you.<br />
<br />
I am simply suggesting (with a bit of humor added to create a visual effect in the mind), those of us who spend ALOT and I do mean ALOT in the cash shop may want to rethink the amount and just wait for the prices to skyrocket downward then buy with sp instead. It sort of makes a person want to kick themselves in the arse for spending so much. Kicking.... as I've done several times in the past few hours.<br />
<br />
It is just a game. This is so true but that does not take away from the fact that we enjoy playing and spending our cash on items we feel is worth it in the long run. Oh brother. I need to just shut up now. We all have an opinion. That is the great thing. We can have different ones.<br />
<br />
<br />
oOBubble_PuddlesOo, I would tell you to be kind to your elders but I think we're in the same boat though even with two teenage girls, I suspect I am still much older than you.<br />
<br />
I am simply suggesting (with a bit of humor added to create a visual effect in the mind), those of us who spend ALOT and I do mean ALOT in the cash shop may want to rethink the amount and just wait for the prices to skyrocket downward then buy with sp instead. It sort of makes a person want to kick themselves in the arse for spending so much. Kicking.... as I've done several times in the past few hours.<br />
<br />
It is just a game. This is so true but that does not take away from the fact that we enjoy playing and spending our cash on items we feel is worth it in the long run. Oh brother. I need to just shut up now. We all have an opinion. That is the great thing. We can have different ones.<br />
<br />
I personally think 25 million is too high - I was always hoping for a 5 million or 10 million some day, but I'm not crazy about such a high increase. A change is definitely welcome, but I'm not sure such a drastic one will work. We'll see, I guess. <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_smile.gif" border="0" />
ok it took me a while to understand but i see that we can still trade items and GA medals at trades. thats cool. i guess we can just wait and see what happens to the prices now.
<b>Quote:</b><blockquote style="padding:5px; line-height:15px; background-color: #FAFFFF; border: 1px solid #000000; font-family: georgia; font-size: 10;">For those of you will run around screaming like you've just had your heads chopped off that this will ruin the trades.</blockquote><br />
<br />
I wanna hear someone screaming as if they've had their head chopped off, that'd sound funny. :'D<br />
<br />
But this is serious cool.<br />
It makes me happy that I don't have to use the trades as often anymore, because it takes forever sometimes. x3 jigs happily
<br />
I wanna hear someone screaming as if they've had their head chopped off, that'd sound funny. :'D<br />
<br />
But this is serious cool.<br />
It makes me happy that I don't have to use the trades as often anymore, because it takes forever sometimes. x3 jigs happily
2Tails..I think you are taking this far too hard. Might I recommend a nice hot bath, some soothing music...and maybe a phone call to a friend you haven't spoken too in awhile. Let the calgon take you away...it will be ok <img src="http://images.subeta.org/smilies/6398_emoticon_smile.gif" border="0" />
Hmm, not sure how I feel about the actual possible impact on the economy, but I hardly ever sell stuff, so it really doesn't concern me. What does concern me is 'PEOPLE WHO HAVE IE CAN FINALLY GET HIGHER PRICED ITEMS!' Finally, those of us who use IE and can't use trades finally get some help!