Neugarten, the new Alegarten
A new leaf requires a new name, ja, so I'd like to welcome you all to celebrate Neugarten with me! I’ll be grilling up hot food und vegan ale und beer over at Gunter's Grill, und two others from ze vegan community are joining me to sell some awesome vegan products. Manwar from ze Trading Card Center is here selling many packaged vegan ingredients und replacements, from non-dairy milks to his favorite hummus recipes, und Rumi from Stick it to ze Man! is here selling various Fashion und Lifestyle items. Just a taste of vegan life right now, hopefully, next year we can come back bigger und even better!
Come along, enjoy some new food und we're here for questions if you're interested in learning more. We’ll be here until July 3rd at 11:59PM!
Posted by 
[NPC] Gunter
Targaryen
I wish there was some gluten free item like arrowroot four, organic rice flour, gluten free bread, organic rice, vegetable chips and gluten free cookies also
2
vvitch
... oh
i love all the new food items, 10/10 would eat IRL but i'm a bit confused as to why this seems to have completely replaced the old holiday
also, why is everything straight up VEGAN and there are no vegetarian items? :(
i love all the new food items, 10/10 would eat IRL but i'm a bit confused as to why this seems to have completely replaced the old holiday
also, why is everything straight up VEGAN and there are no vegetarian items? :(
2
Maddox
Okay not going to touch the whole vegan thing. I know many great vegans who don't push that people who eat meat are evil and that's it's a lifestyle choice and I know many vegans who treat anyone who eats meat like the most evil people in the world.
I for one love the idea of some new foods and such, even vegan. What I do hate is that they have changed an entire great holiday for this and are pushing a, go vegan or you hate animals kind of thinking. No. Just stop.
I for one love the idea of some new foods and such, even vegan. What I do hate is that they have changed an entire great holiday for this and are pushing a, go vegan or you hate animals kind of thinking. No. Just stop.
4
Valiska
@Sprinter137 I liked most of what you said, but I really don't think we should just "leave animals alone". I hope that doesn't mean you're also against keeping pets. People forget that many animals chose to live with us. There are tons of stories about rescued wild animals that want to stay with their people and return even after being released. Dogs exist because wolves chose to live with us.
My personal opinion is that animals should be incorporated into our lives and habitats. Conservation projects have helped people who are herders in Africa stop killing tigers and cheetahs by providing them with dogs so that they don't need to kill the big cats to protect their families and their livelihoods. Obviously many animals are too big and dangerous to live freely in human homes and human habitations but they should have protected spaces to live in areas where we have encroached on their natural living space. Ultimately I don't see segregation of humans and animals as being healthy or liable to prevent extinctions. Humans will protect what they love and care about, and in order to love or care about animals, they need to know animals. I'm all about encouraging relationships between humans and animals, because that's what's going to bring us into the future with more species surviving, including our own.
("Exotic pets" are often used as a wedge issue by the animal rights movement--voters think they have to vote for a proposed law because they don't want to live next door to people who think they can keep tigers in apartments or three-bedroom ranch houses, and aren't really aware that what they're actually doing is forcing people to give up snakes, lizards, ferrets, sugar gliders, and smaller felines like servals and caracals that have been bred in captivity, bond tightly to their owners and often die when separated from their owners. Anyone who wants to learn more about this should check out the Feline Conservation Federation.)
My personal opinion is that animals should be incorporated into our lives and habitats. Conservation projects have helped people who are herders in Africa stop killing tigers and cheetahs by providing them with dogs so that they don't need to kill the big cats to protect their families and their livelihoods. Obviously many animals are too big and dangerous to live freely in human homes and human habitations but they should have protected spaces to live in areas where we have encroached on their natural living space. Ultimately I don't see segregation of humans and animals as being healthy or liable to prevent extinctions. Humans will protect what they love and care about, and in order to love or care about animals, they need to know animals. I'm all about encouraging relationships between humans and animals, because that's what's going to bring us into the future with more species surviving, including our own.
("Exotic pets" are often used as a wedge issue by the animal rights movement--voters think they have to vote for a proposed law because they don't want to live next door to people who think they can keep tigers in apartments or three-bedroom ranch houses, and aren't really aware that what they're actually doing is forcing people to give up snakes, lizards, ferrets, sugar gliders, and smaller felines like servals and caracals that have been bred in captivity, bond tightly to their owners and often die when separated from their owners. Anyone who wants to learn more about this should check out the Feline Conservation Federation.)
8
Tris
Y I K E S
so basically someone is high and mighty that they're veg, and decided to take a meat based holiday and turn it into a veg based holiday instead of just incorporating the two together.
and all the veg who claim they aren't "that type of vegan" are putting on display exactly how they are that type of vegan. congrats on this shit show.
so basically someone is high and mighty that they're veg, and decided to take a meat based holiday and turn it into a veg based holiday instead of just incorporating the two together.
and all the veg who claim they aren't "that type of vegan" are putting on display exactly how they are that type of vegan. congrats on this shit show.
16
Schneizel
Many other people have voiced similar opinions, but I’m going to throw in my two cents anyway. Having more veg/vegan foods is great, having a veg/vegan holiday is great. Replacing an existing holiday with it is not great. Neugarten could have and should have been its own thing.
14
Beowulf
Super cool with the vegan food and stuff. Not cool with the convertion of Alegarten, they just dont seem to have much in common, a new event/festival would have been much more interesting and full of posibilities.
Confuse about most of the mean/heated comments.
Confuse about most of the mean/heated comments.
10
Campanella
@Kirin - That's a good way to put it, I think. The event idea itself is fine, but it's such a large leap from what Alegarten originally was (especially in regards to the wearables) that it just feels... jarring, at least to me. It works as part of Gunter's character arc going by the news post about the monthly challenger tied to him, but as far as the playerbase is concerned, I think this would've gone over better with more people if the new theme was either just part of the event instead of (at least temporarily, from the sound of it?) replacing the old theme altogether, or if it was tied to an event that was already more thematically related, like Vesnali. As it is, it does kind of feel like the old Alegarten was thrown out entirely (sans for being able to buy the old items) in favor of something that's practically as far from the old theme as you can get. :disappointed_relieved:
11
Kirin
Soooo not going to go through all the comments, but I think I realized what was rubbing me the wrong way about all this.
By having such a hard change out of nowhere for a very specific themed event, ie, very german inspired, traditional largely meat based foods and beer, and shifting completely to healthy vegan food.
It’s not merely adding that spectrum for vegan people, it’s taking away from the other people, or worse yet with the transformation it feels like it’s forcing that prior demographic into this new box.
It feels like.... going to a rock concert and all the same people are there as last time but now they’re only performing like... polka or rap or any other genre of music besides the one you were anticipating.
Even if you’re ok with the change like... you got all pumped for rock and now you’re not getting it. So you talk to a vender like ‘hey didn’t realize this was a different thing, sort of figured all the same people ect.... is the fall rock concert still happening?’ And the venders say ‘nope, no more rock, it’s all polka ect from here out’.
I think that’s where I’m rubbed wrong, by all means add vegan/vegetarian (better yet like some suggested full alternative diet eating stuff), but don’t add it at the expense of removing an event on the opposite spectrum. I think it’s unintentionally sending the wrong sort of message.
By having such a hard change out of nowhere for a very specific themed event, ie, very german inspired, traditional largely meat based foods and beer, and shifting completely to healthy vegan food.
It’s not merely adding that spectrum for vegan people, it’s taking away from the other people, or worse yet with the transformation it feels like it’s forcing that prior demographic into this new box.
It feels like.... going to a rock concert and all the same people are there as last time but now they’re only performing like... polka or rap or any other genre of music besides the one you were anticipating.
Even if you’re ok with the change like... you got all pumped for rock and now you’re not getting it. So you talk to a vender like ‘hey didn’t realize this was a different thing, sort of figured all the same people ect.... is the fall rock concert still happening?’ And the venders say ‘nope, no more rock, it’s all polka ect from here out’.
I think that’s where I’m rubbed wrong, by all means add vegan/vegetarian (better yet like some suggested full alternative diet eating stuff), but don’t add it at the expense of removing an event on the opposite spectrum. I think it’s unintentionally sending the wrong sort of message.
29
Sprinter137
Now that the arguing has calmed down, I'm going to make a suggestion. As a vegan I love the new items, but it seems unfair to have ONLY vegan items. I echo someone else's suggestion that this could be a festival catered to alternative eating as a whole. That would give you a LOT of other options to work with, like diets that cater to specific allergies or diseases, other ethical diets, health diets, people who hunt/fish/farm their own food, and even foods specific to other cultures or countries to expand on the original alegarten theme.
Not only do I think this would be fun and interesting to have so many different themes, I think the comments here are a good indicator that the idea of an exclusive event isn't well received by a lot of people. It's not like it's real life and you're asking a vegan couple to have a pig roast at their wedding, this is a site where everyone is welcome, so all styles of eating should be included, not just one.
So yeah, I know I'm only one user, but I hope the staff at least considers my points. I reaaaally don't want to see our community at odds like this every again.
Not only do I think this would be fun and interesting to have so many different themes, I think the comments here are a good indicator that the idea of an exclusive event isn't well received by a lot of people. It's not like it's real life and you're asking a vegan couple to have a pig roast at their wedding, this is a site where everyone is welcome, so all styles of eating should be included, not just one.
So yeah, I know I'm only one user, but I hope the staff at least considers my points. I reaaaally don't want to see our community at odds like this every again.
14
Choco
Did I read vegan? Vegan food? And lots of them? Man, that's really cool! Thank you!
Wish I could try them all myself! They look so yummy omg
Wish I could try them all myself! They look so yummy omg
5
Woodland
I love eating plantbased products and veggie burgers though I am not vegan or vegeterian, I am excited for these new food items!
2
Undyne
I really like the Neugarten Oatmeal items! And the art on all the new foods is really good! Well done, team!
2
Mavron_Brisque
Not gonna get into the veganism thing. It's kind of a silly argument and this isn't really the forum for it.
I'm just sad to have lost one of my favorite events on Subeta. With my father's failing health, I've been exploring more of my German heritage and this event gave me an opportunity to do so on-site. Wearables and food especially. I also loved the boozahol side of things, not just because it unabashedly reminded us that this is not a kid's site, but also because it highlighted fine brewing. But ultimately, Subeta's a business and they can do whatever they please. I'm bummed, but not entitled.
I'm just sad to have lost one of my favorite events on Subeta. With my father's failing health, I've been exploring more of my German heritage and this event gave me an opportunity to do so on-site. Wearables and food especially. I also loved the boozahol side of things, not just because it unabashedly reminded us that this is not a kid's site, but also because it highlighted fine brewing. But ultimately, Subeta's a business and they can do whatever they please. I'm bummed, but not entitled.
18
Straywillow
I'm a little disappointed there was only one thing I wished to buy but glad others enjoyed.
0
StarShadow
Argh, I can't find anything to match the light blue or yellow alegarten shirts or bodices. They never made skirts to go with all of these tops? How frustrating. :(
3
Elwyn
I don't understand why so many people are upset. There are lots of non vegan foods on subeta so I think it;s nice to see some more vegan things offered.
I would actually like to see Gunter leave a few samples in the regular food shop after the fest, being vegan myself I've been having fun feeding my pets all the vegan food.
Let's just be kind to each other.
I would actually like to see Gunter leave a few samples in the regular food shop after the fest, being vegan myself I've been having fun feeding my pets all the vegan food.
Let's just be kind to each other.
9
Sprinter137
@Valiska
I don't agree with a lot of the animal rights movement either, I know it's not possible and a lot of it is just dumb. Basically I just think animals should be left alone UNLESS absolutely necessary, such as food, conservation, pest control, etc. I just don't eat animals personally because I feel healthier not doing so, but I know that isn't the case for everyone. I was annoyed at all the debating when I posted my previous comments so disregard those, lol. Sometimes it's hard to be an easygoing vegan when people are so rude about it. I agree with many comments here that veganism ISN'T cruelty free, but I just don't like the way people put it, like we're the problem and they have no part in it. ALL of us cause some kind of harm in this world, unless you live completely off the grid and produce your own food (which isn't possible for most people).
I don't agree with a lot of the animal rights movement either, I know it's not possible and a lot of it is just dumb. Basically I just think animals should be left alone UNLESS absolutely necessary, such as food, conservation, pest control, etc. I just don't eat animals personally because I feel healthier not doing so, but I know that isn't the case for everyone. I was annoyed at all the debating when I posted my previous comments so disregard those, lol. Sometimes it's hard to be an easygoing vegan when people are so rude about it. I agree with many comments here that veganism ISN'T cruelty free, but I just don't like the way people put it, like we're the problem and they have no part in it. ALL of us cause some kind of harm in this world, unless you live completely off the grid and produce your own food (which isn't possible for most people).
4
Valiska
@Sprinter137 - that's because very few people have any idea what the "animal rights"/animal liberation movement is really about and I wish more people did because that would be the end of the "animal rights" movement.
These groups want to end pet ownership. They want to end basically all association between humans and animals whatsoever. They are opposed to life-saving medical research. They also don't much care if animals die as long as no human benefits from it. In fact, 95% of animals that end up in PeTA's care end up dead.
The food chain is a reality. I don't care whether you eat meat or drink milk or not. That's your business. But the animal liberation movement is utilitarian philosophy run amok and is run by people who don't actually know or care that much about animals. The nicer ones think that all animals can be returned to a wild state in whatever's left of the ecosystem after we have devoted every inch of arable land to soy and corn to feed 8 billion vegans and are presumably fertilising all those crops with human bodies and human manure. But you should hear the rest of them.
Here's Wayne Pacelle, the guy that runs HSUS:
“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding …One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.” – CEO Wayne Pacelle, as reported in Animal People News, May 1993
“I don’t want to see another cat or dog born.” – CEO Wayne Pacelle in Bloodties, 1994
Sadly this is very typical.
These groups want to end pet ownership. They want to end basically all association between humans and animals whatsoever. They are opposed to life-saving medical research. They also don't much care if animals die as long as no human benefits from it. In fact, 95% of animals that end up in PeTA's care end up dead.
The food chain is a reality. I don't care whether you eat meat or drink milk or not. That's your business. But the animal liberation movement is utilitarian philosophy run amok and is run by people who don't actually know or care that much about animals. The nicer ones think that all animals can be returned to a wild state in whatever's left of the ecosystem after we have devoted every inch of arable land to soy and corn to feed 8 billion vegans and are presumably fertilising all those crops with human bodies and human manure. But you should hear the rest of them.
Here's Wayne Pacelle, the guy that runs HSUS:
“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding …One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.” – CEO Wayne Pacelle, as reported in Animal People News, May 1993
“I don’t want to see another cat or dog born.” – CEO Wayne Pacelle in Bloodties, 1994
Sadly this is very typical.
29
Valiska
@beinagrind as a celiac, I'm grateful for quinoa and for all that "fad diet ignorance" that makes it possible for me to eat outside of my house instead of having people look at me like "what is a gluten" or "oh my god you don't eat BREAD?"
11
Thomas
Oh wow is this all way too much over a whole bunch of nothing. I'm a meat eater but definitely support the site offering additional positive view points and options for those who identify otherwise. My boyfriend of four years is a vegetarian and we manage to live in harmony by being respectful each other's choices, it's really not that hard. Not everything has to revolve around the majority all the time.
And we recently discovered tempeh in Indonesia, it's delicious! My boyfriend is ambivalent about tofu but we both loved it.
And we recently discovered tempeh in Indonesia, it's delicious! My boyfriend is ambivalent about tofu but we both loved it.
9
Mephistopheles
... Well I guess I'm not entirely surprised the comments turned into a weird debate BUT.
Always thrilled for new food items, even if I find the character of Gunter changing over ironic.
Gunter my guy, you murdered your brother, you can't really just turn over a new leaf there. Kinda gotta face some sorta justice for that. Food looks lovely though, for sure.
Always thrilled for new food items, even if I find the character of Gunter changing over ironic.
Gunter my guy, you murdered your brother, you can't really just turn over a new leaf there. Kinda gotta face some sorta justice for that. Food looks lovely though, for sure.
9
Chroma
It would be nice if people weren't so dang judgmental over what others eat. Being a meat eater doesn't make you a bad person. Being a vegan doesn't make you a bad person. As long as the world is as overpopulated as it is, neither side will ever be "cruelty free". That's just a sad fact of reality.
22
Juke
I don't care if anyone's vegan or not, but the way this whole thing is turning is kinda dumb.
Just make a new vegan event? Easier said than done, I'm sure, but... C'mon. It's alegarten.
Just make a new vegan event? Easier said than done, I'm sure, but... C'mon. It's alegarten.
13
Avel
And as odd as I feel having to put more vegan stickers in my collection despite not being vegan, I like trying for a complete collection.
It's not weird, right?
It's not weird, right?
2
Avel
@METRIOD
Yeah, I strikes me as weird that he can still look his niece in the eyes, knowing what he did. :c
Yeah, I strikes me as weird that he can still look his niece in the eyes, knowing what he did. :c
8
METROID
Look, can Gunter just get arrested already? Bastard killed his own brother, and he thinks turning vegan will wash away his sin? Pfft.
Besides, I miss Titania.
Besides, I miss Titania.
25
Fluxism
everyone is aware they still have a ton of the old german/meaty/etc items, right..? there's 2 separate shop areas.
3
Nuke
As someone who is currently sitting in a basement full of German stuff and has a family very proud of their German heritage, and would attend monthly German picnics at the German-American club for the first decade-and-a-half of my life, even though I didn't care for Alegarten...
Yeah, I feel like a way better way to do this would have been to simply incorporate the vegan items into a newly branded festival. I think it would've been great if they were all "And we're introducing healthier items to welcome EVERYONE to our culture etc etc!", not reversing so damn hard in the other direction just to push a point. Like, I get it, but also, ew. I also wouldn't have appreciated if they had made items that were all made 100% from meat and said things like "animals exist only to be eaten and if you eat any plants you're a pansy!" like. Going so hard in one direction is gonna annoy the shit out of people so why not just chill.
I'm not gonna participate in this just like I didn't in Alegarten just cause nothing appeals to me. I'm not gonna get super mad but I'm gonna be annoyed. People are comparing this to LGBT stuff but uh last time I checked "being made fun of for being vegan which is 100% a choice you made for yourself" is reeeeally not in the same category as "having your rights taken away or getting disowned by family or getting physically attacked for something you have no control over" so like. Lmao.
Yeah, I feel like a way better way to do this would have been to simply incorporate the vegan items into a newly branded festival. I think it would've been great if they were all "And we're introducing healthier items to welcome EVERYONE to our culture etc etc!", not reversing so damn hard in the other direction just to push a point. Like, I get it, but also, ew. I also wouldn't have appreciated if they had made items that were all made 100% from meat and said things like "animals exist only to be eaten and if you eat any plants you're a pansy!" like. Going so hard in one direction is gonna annoy the shit out of people so why not just chill.
I'm not gonna participate in this just like I didn't in Alegarten just cause nothing appeals to me. I'm not gonna get super mad but I'm gonna be annoyed. People are comparing this to LGBT stuff but uh last time I checked "being made fun of for being vegan which is 100% a choice you made for yourself" is reeeeally not in the same category as "having your rights taken away or getting disowned by family or getting physically attacked for something you have no control over" so like. Lmao.
56
Arte
I kinda wish they had more than just Vegan options. I get that Gunter has switched to Veganism but what about vegetarians and people who do eat meat? couldn't they have someone do those recipes too? I also wish that this holiday hadn't seemed to put people on edge with each other. like vegans vs non vegans. Other than that, pretty neat stuff.
18
Fluxism
whew, not even gonna get into the weird arguments going on here. just wanted to say i love the items!
3
Fray
@Sprinter137 Exactly! And if you write a post in return to disprove their points? "Wow, why are you getting so defensive? ?" uhhh maybe because you started bashing vegans for no reason first?
I agree. I avoid discussions about this topic as much as possible because people get really dumb about it, and then we get made out to be the bad guys because we hurt their feelings by stating researched, non biased facts. Stop pretending that the average person who eats meat researches/cares exactly where their food comes from, because they really don't.
I find it funny that "plants are alive too!!!" always gets brought up because then oh no..... that makes you guys even worse because you murder both animals AND plants! Plus what do you think the animals eat? Lmao
I'm sure the potatoes that I'm going to eat later had such a painful death ?
Like, just let me eat my dead plants in peace.
I agree. I avoid discussions about this topic as much as possible because people get really dumb about it, and then we get made out to be the bad guys because we hurt their feelings by stating researched, non biased facts. Stop pretending that the average person who eats meat researches/cares exactly where their food comes from, because they really don't.
I find it funny that "plants are alive too!!!" always gets brought up because then oh no..... that makes you guys even worse because you murder both animals AND plants! Plus what do you think the animals eat? Lmao
I'm sure the potatoes that I'm going to eat later had such a painful death ?
Like, just let me eat my dead plants in peace.
9
Isilven
How the heck did "Let's not stereotype vegans as aggressive self-righteous jerks!" become "I AM MORE PUT UPON THAN THE REST OF YOU: THE TEXT BATTLE GAME ON A SUBETA NEWS POST"????
Y'all need to chill, fr.
Y'all need to chill, fr.
8
Sprinter137
@Fray
Yesss oh my goddddd, I don't care if people don't want to be vegan but quit bringing up every excuse in the book to bash veganism. THIS right here is why many vegans are are rude to meat eaters, because they can't just disagree without posting a long novel about every reason veganism is wrong. You don't like it when we do it, so maybe you should stop doing it to us. Most of us don't care about debating with meat eaters until you have to start being condescending and insulting about it.
And now we have the stupid plants argument brought in, because after all, a blade of grass and a cow are on EXACTLY the same level of consciousness. I'm sure the squash I'm going to eat for dinner is crying hysterically in some high frequency I can't hear because I'm going to brutally murder it and carve its guts out.
Yesss oh my goddddd, I don't care if people don't want to be vegan but quit bringing up every excuse in the book to bash veganism. THIS right here is why many vegans are are rude to meat eaters, because they can't just disagree without posting a long novel about every reason veganism is wrong. You don't like it when we do it, so maybe you should stop doing it to us. Most of us don't care about debating with meat eaters until you have to start being condescending and insulting about it.
And now we have the stupid plants argument brought in, because after all, a blade of grass and a cow are on EXACTLY the same level of consciousness. I'm sure the squash I'm going to eat for dinner is crying hysterically in some high frequency I can't hear because I'm going to brutally murder it and carve its guts out.
9
Jesus
newsflash: everything is problematic and just because yours is socially accepted doesnt mean its better
11
Jesus
these comments kill me
also killing plants is not murder
killing animals is Also Not Murder
killing of a human by a human is murder lmao
god guys chill its fictional food, its almost like diversity in people actually exists and the same should be said about characters
also killing plants is not murder
killing animals is Also Not Murder
killing of a human by a human is murder lmao
god guys chill its fictional food, its almost like diversity in people actually exists and the same should be said about characters
21
bulleta
everyone is being so rude an obnoxious to each while pretending to be nice, reasonable and inclusive of everyone and everything, I love it
5
stars_water
@reebS
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm just not thrilled about this site diving even deeper into SJW/politically correct territory. That stuff is very toxic when it gets taken too far, and toxicity very much makes games not fun.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm just not thrilled about this site diving even deeper into SJW/politically correct territory. That stuff is very toxic when it gets taken too far, and toxicity very much makes games not fun.
17
stars_water
Veganism is not healthy, and it trades animal murder for plant murder.
Just because most plants can't react to things in a way that we as animals can understand doesn't mean they don't want to live too. Science has actually found that some plants are able to learn or react to threats in a way that we humans can measure, touch-me-nots being one of them. I believe there was a crop that was found to have such a thing as well.
Regardless of whether we're killing something that's familiar to us completely different from us, it's still murder either way. It's an unfortunate fact of life.
Just because most plants can't react to things in a way that we as animals can understand doesn't mean they don't want to live too. Science has actually found that some plants are able to learn or react to threats in a way that we humans can measure, touch-me-nots being one of them. I believe there was a crop that was found to have such a thing as well.
Regardless of whether we're killing something that's familiar to us completely different from us, it's still murder either way. It's an unfortunate fact of life.
17
Ciel
Man, I love revamps and new approaches, but couldn't this be handled better than just catering to one group of people? I'm pretty positive that you guys could've come up with something more fun and creative that piques the interest of ALL users. Why not combine the idea with something else so all of us have something to look forward to? It could've been a simple Health festival for all I know, where we have fitting food, wearables and other stuffs to collect. I mean, you can only do so many Vegan items until you run out of ideas like you did with Alegarten.
39
reebS
Wow, some of you need to chill the eff out. I don’t understand how anyone can take personal offense to a Vegan Fest on a pet site. Unreal. If you don’t like it, don’t participate, but don’t try to ruin it for others by acting like there is something wrong with it.
And to artists and staff, thanks for all the new items and hard work, as always!
And to artists and staff, thanks for all the new items and hard work, as always!
13
Sopheroo
Some vegan alternatives are incredibly taxing on the environment - namely agave nectar.
Cruelty-free shouldn't just apply to animals - it should also embrace our whole planet.
Cruelty-free shouldn't just apply to animals - it should also embrace our whole planet.
46
Sprinter137
@momo_the_peachy
No, but when I first went vegan, I unfortunately got sucked in to the whole "meat eaters are evil and every farmer just cares about profit" thing, so I believed everything the other activists said. Now that I don't hang around with them anymore, I'm questioning how much of that is even true.
No, but when I first went vegan, I unfortunately got sucked in to the whole "meat eaters are evil and every farmer just cares about profit" thing, so I believed everything the other activists said. Now that I don't hang around with them anymore, I'm questioning how much of that is even true.
4
Amae
Welp this sure is a long comment section.
I just came to see if anyone was talking about Anne being adorable and taking over some of the duties for Gunter despite.... everythingggggg.
Hope you're having fun at this job Anne!
I just came to see if anyone was talking about Anne being adorable and taking over some of the duties for Gunter despite.... everythingggggg.
Hope you're having fun at this job Anne!
3
Blythe
Reminder to self and all vegans - Subeta is still the internet. Vegan-bashing is alive and well on the internet and everyone is a nutrition expert. No matter what you say, if the internet finds out you are vegan, do not expect to be heard and roll the dice to see what the response will be (if you’re vegan, you already know what the standard responses are, because you hear them every day).
8
Quirk
@Sprinter137
I'm curious. Did you see video proof of beehives being burnt with bees still in it? Also, I've heard of the PETA. I don't trust them. My mum subscribed to them said that they could direct debit $20, they took $40. When she realized and called them to unsubscribe, she was rudely abused by one their members, called a 'senile old meat eater'. There was even an expose done, which aired on The Feed on SBS, how staff from PETA were harassing and bullying farmers and people who worked at abattoirs. Like, I could never work at one of those places. But for some people, it's how they made ends meet, and how they provided for their family, and to bully someone for trying to put food on the table for their kids....yeah....that organisation is really, really shady.
I'm curious. Did you see video proof of beehives being burnt with bees still in it? Also, I've heard of the PETA. I don't trust them. My mum subscribed to them said that they could direct debit $20, they took $40. When she realized and called them to unsubscribe, she was rudely abused by one their members, called a 'senile old meat eater'. There was even an expose done, which aired on The Feed on SBS, how staff from PETA were harassing and bullying farmers and people who worked at abattoirs. Like, I could never work at one of those places. But for some people, it's how they made ends meet, and how they provided for their family, and to bully someone for trying to put food on the table for their kids....yeah....that organisation is really, really shady.
19
Sprinter137
A lot of the vegan aggression seems to be grounded in misinformation about farming...I was always told by vegan activists and such that a lot of beekeepers burn the hives (with the bees in them) when they're done with them, a lot of factory farming practices are still done on small farms, etc. Is all this just propaganda from PETA and I'm the one that's misinformed? My main issue with things other than meat is mistreatment, not the whole "using animals is slavery" mentality (which is ridiculous lol). Well that and dairy hates my digestive system :[
7
Michelle
This is one of the best posts ever!!
If you could live perfectly well without harming another, why wouldn't you?
Be kind. Be vegan.
If you could live perfectly well without harming another, why wouldn't you?
Be kind. Be vegan.
4
beinagrind
@sorenteen No need for sorry, there was an emoji there because i forget the site turns it into a question mark, subeta making me appear passive aggressive instead of friendly haha
7
beinagrind
@sorenteen Yes! I 100% support my local beekeepers, but my comment was already long enough, lol ?
6
Sorenthine
@beinagrind Also, eating honey isn't bad for bees. I've got to get to work so I can't go into it myself, instead I will quote from some beekeepers -
https://velocicrafter.tumblr.com/post/119405673063/is-using-honey-bad-it-would-be-hard-for-me-to
"As a beekeeper, let me say the following.
As a vegan, you depend upon beekeeping. It doesn’t matter if you never use beeswax or eat honey. You still depend on beekeeping. It is absolutely impossible not to.
Because here’s the secret; you know all those delicious fruits and vegetables you eat? You wouldn’t have them if it wasn’t for bees, and here’s another secret; those bees were probably either kept by the farmer who grew them for the purpose of pollinating his/her crops, or moved to the farm during pollination season by a beekeeper.
If you’ve ever eaten a cherry, almond, blueberry, tomato, melon, squash, raspberry, strawberry…hell, most fruits or veggies…you’ve benefited from beekeeping. There is simply no way to avoid it. If you leave it up to whatever pollinators happen to stop in from the surrounding area, your yields will suffer dramatically, which means less produce and less money for the farmer. Therefore, the easy and universally preferred method is to plop a few hives on the property. The girls will make sure that just about every last almond/cherry/blueberry flower is pollinated (They’re VERY good at what they do) and you can happily harvest a bumper crop. This is a universally used practice among food producers.
And do you know the best way to help make sure the bees survive?
Keep them. Organically, without using any chemicals. And here’s a secret about beekeeping; you inspect the hives whether or not you take honey, to make sure the bees are healthy and doing well. (There are mites and diseases that can severely harm bees, and even as an organic beekeeper who doesn’t use chemicals on her girls there are methods I use to prevent/treat things like varroa mite infestation that can kill an otherwise healthy hive).
And yes, when you open a hive to inspect it, you might crush one or two bees. But tell me, honestly, that you’ve never killed an insect. Bees themselves will kill sick/non productive members of the hive to ensure the health of the hive as a whole; I don’t see how my accidentally squishing one to ensure the health of the other 50,000 is any different.
And this is what all beekeepers do. And if you, as before mentioned, ever eat anything that isn’t grain-based, this is what took place to put that food on your plate.
I would also like to point out that bees will store as much honey as they possibly can…which usually ends up being waaaaay more than they actually can use. To survive a log Iowa winter, my bees need about 100 lbs of honey per hive. Well, last year one hive had TWICE that. (I took 50 pounds, leaving them MORE than enough to get through the winter. I just checked on them today; they’re alive and healthy).
You are NOT hurting them by taking a little honey for yourself, no more than you already are by looking in on them every two or three weeks to make sure they’re healthy.
And again, if you ever eat any fruits or veggies, SOMEONE IS ALREADY KEEPING BEES TO POLLINATE THEM AND INSPECTING THEM TO MAKE SURE THEY’RE HAPPY AND HEALTHY.
KEEPING BEES IS NOT WHAT IS KILLING BEES IT IS WHAT IS SAVING BEES.
WITHOUT BEES YOUR VEGAN DIET IS IMPOSSIBLE.
WITHOUT THAT “EVIL” EXPLOITATION OF BEES YOUR VEGAN DIET IS IMPOSSIBLE.
AGAIN, BEEKEEPING IS WHAT IS SAVING BEES NOT KILLING THEM.
SO IF YOU EAT A LITTLE HONEY IT IS HONESTLY NO WORSE THAN EATING SOME ALMONDS AND FRUIT SALAD.
“Drops mic” "
"Also, there’s a REASON you take honey from bees, not just because you want to eat it.
See, like I said before, bees will store as much honey as they can. It’s instinctive. However, there’s only so much room in a hive to put stuff, and honey isn’t the only thing in a hive. They also need room to raise brood, store pollen, ect. Now, if they run out of room, they’ll start feeling overcrowded, which will trigger swarming activity. You can, of course, add more supers (boxes) to the hive, but there’s a limit on how many workers one queen can produce, and you don’t want more supers than they can police, even if all of them are stuffed full of honey. That way lies pests and raiding. So, what we want to do is make sure that they don’t feel overcrowded, while making sure that they don’t have more room than they can take care of.
When bees feel overcrowded, they swarm. When they swarm, they raise a new queen. The old queen and half the bees will then leave to try and find someplace to start a new hive. 90% of swarms die. As a beekeeper, you don’t want this.
You can, of course, purposefully let them start raising a new queen and then split a new hive off of the old one if you want to. I’ve done this myself. But this is not always desirable, for many reasons (no more room for more hives, can’t take care of more, don’t have a spare hive body on hand, ect.) There’s also the fact that a recently swarmed hive is susceptible to raiding by wasps/skunks (skunks LOVE to raid hives, the little bastards) or mice, as half the bees that would have defended it before are now gone. You don’t want this either; raiding can kill a hive as quick as disease or pests. (This is why I keep a VERY close eye on any hives that I’ve recently split, and have taken potshots at skunks in the backyard with a slingshot before. Not to kill them, just to scare them off.)
If you don’t want them to swarm, the easiest way to keep them from feeling cramped and give them a little new breathing room is to pull a few surplus honey frames they’ve filled up and replace them with empty frames. The girls will then happily go back to work filling the new empty frames with honey or brood or whatever they decide needs to go in all that new space. They don’t feel crowded any longer, the hive doesn’t swarm and stays strong, everyone’s happy.
And what, then, am I supposed to do with these three frames of honey I pulled? Throw them away? Hell no. That’s 30-40 pounds of delicious, right there.
Humans and bees have what’s called a symbiotic relationship. We both benefit from the arrangement. Don’t diss things if you don’t understand how they work.
And, one more time…keeping bees is necessary for your vegan diet to remain viable. A beekeeper is going to inspect all of those hives anyway, which is the most stressful part of beekeeping for the bees. You are, with your eating habits, (and by that I mean ‘really just eating’, because there’s NO diet that doesn’t rely on beekeeping) reliant on this practice. Taking a frame or two of honey is the LEAST stressful part of inspecting a hive for the bees.
Source; have kept bees organically for 10 years, help other hobbyists in the area who want to start keeping bees. Garden organically. Generally Actually Know Where My Food Comes From And What It Takes To Get It On My Plate. "
https://velocicrafter.tumblr.com/post/119405673063/is-using-honey-bad-it-would-be-hard-for-me-to
"As a beekeeper, let me say the following.
As a vegan, you depend upon beekeeping. It doesn’t matter if you never use beeswax or eat honey. You still depend on beekeeping. It is absolutely impossible not to.
Because here’s the secret; you know all those delicious fruits and vegetables you eat? You wouldn’t have them if it wasn’t for bees, and here’s another secret; those bees were probably either kept by the farmer who grew them for the purpose of pollinating his/her crops, or moved to the farm during pollination season by a beekeeper.
If you’ve ever eaten a cherry, almond, blueberry, tomato, melon, squash, raspberry, strawberry…hell, most fruits or veggies…you’ve benefited from beekeeping. There is simply no way to avoid it. If you leave it up to whatever pollinators happen to stop in from the surrounding area, your yields will suffer dramatically, which means less produce and less money for the farmer. Therefore, the easy and universally preferred method is to plop a few hives on the property. The girls will make sure that just about every last almond/cherry/blueberry flower is pollinated (They’re VERY good at what they do) and you can happily harvest a bumper crop. This is a universally used practice among food producers.
And do you know the best way to help make sure the bees survive?
Keep them. Organically, without using any chemicals. And here’s a secret about beekeeping; you inspect the hives whether or not you take honey, to make sure the bees are healthy and doing well. (There are mites and diseases that can severely harm bees, and even as an organic beekeeper who doesn’t use chemicals on her girls there are methods I use to prevent/treat things like varroa mite infestation that can kill an otherwise healthy hive).
And yes, when you open a hive to inspect it, you might crush one or two bees. But tell me, honestly, that you’ve never killed an insect. Bees themselves will kill sick/non productive members of the hive to ensure the health of the hive as a whole; I don’t see how my accidentally squishing one to ensure the health of the other 50,000 is any different.
And this is what all beekeepers do. And if you, as before mentioned, ever eat anything that isn’t grain-based, this is what took place to put that food on your plate.
I would also like to point out that bees will store as much honey as they possibly can…which usually ends up being waaaaay more than they actually can use. To survive a log Iowa winter, my bees need about 100 lbs of honey per hive. Well, last year one hive had TWICE that. (I took 50 pounds, leaving them MORE than enough to get through the winter. I just checked on them today; they’re alive and healthy).
You are NOT hurting them by taking a little honey for yourself, no more than you already are by looking in on them every two or three weeks to make sure they’re healthy.
And again, if you ever eat any fruits or veggies, SOMEONE IS ALREADY KEEPING BEES TO POLLINATE THEM AND INSPECTING THEM TO MAKE SURE THEY’RE HAPPY AND HEALTHY.
KEEPING BEES IS NOT WHAT IS KILLING BEES IT IS WHAT IS SAVING BEES.
WITHOUT BEES YOUR VEGAN DIET IS IMPOSSIBLE.
WITHOUT THAT “EVIL” EXPLOITATION OF BEES YOUR VEGAN DIET IS IMPOSSIBLE.
AGAIN, BEEKEEPING IS WHAT IS SAVING BEES NOT KILLING THEM.
SO IF YOU EAT A LITTLE HONEY IT IS HONESTLY NO WORSE THAN EATING SOME ALMONDS AND FRUIT SALAD.
“Drops mic” "
"Also, there’s a REASON you take honey from bees, not just because you want to eat it.
See, like I said before, bees will store as much honey as they can. It’s instinctive. However, there’s only so much room in a hive to put stuff, and honey isn’t the only thing in a hive. They also need room to raise brood, store pollen, ect. Now, if they run out of room, they’ll start feeling overcrowded, which will trigger swarming activity. You can, of course, add more supers (boxes) to the hive, but there’s a limit on how many workers one queen can produce, and you don’t want more supers than they can police, even if all of them are stuffed full of honey. That way lies pests and raiding. So, what we want to do is make sure that they don’t feel overcrowded, while making sure that they don’t have more room than they can take care of.
When bees feel overcrowded, they swarm. When they swarm, they raise a new queen. The old queen and half the bees will then leave to try and find someplace to start a new hive. 90% of swarms die. As a beekeeper, you don’t want this.
You can, of course, purposefully let them start raising a new queen and then split a new hive off of the old one if you want to. I’ve done this myself. But this is not always desirable, for many reasons (no more room for more hives, can’t take care of more, don’t have a spare hive body on hand, ect.) There’s also the fact that a recently swarmed hive is susceptible to raiding by wasps/skunks (skunks LOVE to raid hives, the little bastards) or mice, as half the bees that would have defended it before are now gone. You don’t want this either; raiding can kill a hive as quick as disease or pests. (This is why I keep a VERY close eye on any hives that I’ve recently split, and have taken potshots at skunks in the backyard with a slingshot before. Not to kill them, just to scare them off.)
If you don’t want them to swarm, the easiest way to keep them from feeling cramped and give them a little new breathing room is to pull a few surplus honey frames they’ve filled up and replace them with empty frames. The girls will then happily go back to work filling the new empty frames with honey or brood or whatever they decide needs to go in all that new space. They don’t feel crowded any longer, the hive doesn’t swarm and stays strong, everyone’s happy.
And what, then, am I supposed to do with these three frames of honey I pulled? Throw them away? Hell no. That’s 30-40 pounds of delicious, right there.
Humans and bees have what’s called a symbiotic relationship. We both benefit from the arrangement. Don’t diss things if you don’t understand how they work.
And, one more time…keeping bees is necessary for your vegan diet to remain viable. A beekeeper is going to inspect all of those hives anyway, which is the most stressful part of beekeeping for the bees. You are, with your eating habits, (and by that I mean ‘really just eating’, because there’s NO diet that doesn’t rely on beekeeping) reliant on this practice. Taking a frame or two of honey is the LEAST stressful part of inspecting a hive for the bees.
Source; have kept bees organically for 10 years, help other hobbyists in the area who want to start keeping bees. Garden organically. Generally Actually Know Where My Food Comes From And What It Takes To Get It On My Plate. "
49
Serena922003
Waited to cool off before sharing thoughts. A good sleep helped.
I think the new items are cool and an area that needed some additions. Yay cashew and almond milk!
That aside I was really struck by the way it happened and I don't know that I like it.
Alegarten was beer and sausage and leiderhosen.
Now it's vegan fest?
It just seems so weird and I don't get it.
It feels like it could have been a summer farmer's market kind of event separate from beer-sausage-fest.
A separate event to represent that demographic.
It just.. feels... weird.
I think the new items are cool and an area that needed some additions. Yay cashew and almond milk!
That aside I was really struck by the way it happened and I don't know that I like it.
Alegarten was beer and sausage and leiderhosen.
Now it's vegan fest?
It just seems so weird and I don't get it.
It feels like it could have been a summer farmer's market kind of event separate from beer-sausage-fest.
A separate event to represent that demographic.
It just.. feels... weird.
41
beinagrind
Third time's the charm, right?
Like i get it, most vegans are vegan because they love animals and/or they believe it's the way to save the environment, that's totally understandable. I just disagree fundamentally, and i think these items/the rebranding of alegarten is contributing to downright dangerous pseudo-scientific ideas, and painting veganism as a perfect solution for environmental and animal welfare reasons, when it's really not that simple.
Like i don't care if you don't want to eat animals, that's absolutely fine, i too enjoy vegetables, every day. What i'm against is this soap-box of glossing over any negative aspects of veganism and touting "cruelty-free" when none of us can live truly cruelty-free. Just because you don't have animals on your plate, doesn't mean animals didn't die for your food, your clothes, your makeup, your tech, etc.
Like, Manwar's
, plant based honey alternative, perfect, no stealing from animals, right? But when you look into it further, the current increase in harvest of agave nectar is removing that source from the highly specialized endangered bat species that eat that nectar. Those bat species are pollinators and actually fill almost the same niche as honeybees, and the decline of them has knock-on effects on every other animal in their eco-system. Agave is (probably) fine when a small minority is eating it, but you can even find it in health stores in my country, across the entire world from where agave grows. Not only are they harvesting way too much agave to sate consumers' needs, they are transporting those goods over massive distances, which is another problem for the environment. And let's not even get into the incredible amount of water needed to produce 
, when we are facing droughts. 
is another, the nuts are frequently harvested and shelled by child labourers in unregulated plantations. Cashew nut shells cause contact dermatitis and potentially permanent hand damage, even possible amputations, after prolonged exposure. It's not by any means a "cruelty-free" alternative to dairy, and i don't trust a single cashew nut unless it's traceable every step of the way and proven to not exploit child labourers. And it sucks because i really love cashews.
Which brings me to another point: i live in a country with mostly mountains and poor soil. In most areas here, it's more effective to let sheep and goats graze on the wild grasses and leave their poop to fertilize it, than to bring in artificial fertilizers and monoculture the mountainsides to will kale to grow, thereby increasing runoff of fertilizers and contributing to soil depletion and erosion, and eutrophication of lakes and fjords. It would also require killing mass amount of animals that lived in the area and tried to eat the crops, and even accidental deaths when harvesting. Like most fruits we have to import because it's cold and barren here. Historically, our diet is heavily meat, game, fish, and whale based, because that's what's been sustainable and *possible* in this area. And it's not like we're an outlier, most of human society has relied on animal sources of food. Just because we now have the science to force plants to grow doesn't make it a sustainable or environmentally friendly method, when there's so much we need to do to make those plants grow. And a sheep or a deer grows itself.
There's also the petroleum issue. Synthetic fibres like acrylic, polyester, fleece, and nylon are mostly made from petroleum, a fossil fuel, and are known to shed non-biodegradable micro-fibres constantly. If you remember the micro-granule stuff in soaps a few years ago, synthetic fibres are currently doing the exact same. This is an area most people, vegans and non-vegans, don't know about, but it's a huge problem; plankton eat the fibres, fish eat the plankton, fish starve to death because they get impacted and feel full from the acrylic fibres. Simplified. Synthetic fibres also do not break down if you stop caring for them, not for potentially centuries, unlike animal hide. The production of these synthetic fibres can also be extremely toxic for the people making them.
I don't know enough about plant-based fibres to comment one way or another, but i suspect there are similar concerns with some types of them as with the other points, ie. some of them take an inordinate amount of resources to produce when you could just let a sheep out to graze for itself, and shear it in spring.
I will say that i'm very appreciative there's no quinoa added in this batch nor on the site at all, as that is the poster-child of fad diet ignorance. As an aside, there is so much more to bavarian cuisine than just sausages and beer! You could expand it to all of germany/surrounding countries and have a ton more potential already.
Like i get it, most vegans are vegan because they love animals and/or they believe it's the way to save the environment, that's totally understandable. I just disagree fundamentally, and i think these items/the rebranding of alegarten is contributing to downright dangerous pseudo-scientific ideas, and painting veganism as a perfect solution for environmental and animal welfare reasons, when it's really not that simple.
Like i don't care if you don't want to eat animals, that's absolutely fine, i too enjoy vegetables, every day. What i'm against is this soap-box of glossing over any negative aspects of veganism and touting "cruelty-free" when none of us can live truly cruelty-free. Just because you don't have animals on your plate, doesn't mean animals didn't die for your food, your clothes, your makeup, your tech, etc.
Like, Manwar's
Which brings me to another point: i live in a country with mostly mountains and poor soil. In most areas here, it's more effective to let sheep and goats graze on the wild grasses and leave their poop to fertilize it, than to bring in artificial fertilizers and monoculture the mountainsides to will kale to grow, thereby increasing runoff of fertilizers and contributing to soil depletion and erosion, and eutrophication of lakes and fjords. It would also require killing mass amount of animals that lived in the area and tried to eat the crops, and even accidental deaths when harvesting. Like most fruits we have to import because it's cold and barren here. Historically, our diet is heavily meat, game, fish, and whale based, because that's what's been sustainable and *possible* in this area. And it's not like we're an outlier, most of human society has relied on animal sources of food. Just because we now have the science to force plants to grow doesn't make it a sustainable or environmentally friendly method, when there's so much we need to do to make those plants grow. And a sheep or a deer grows itself.
There's also the petroleum issue. Synthetic fibres like acrylic, polyester, fleece, and nylon are mostly made from petroleum, a fossil fuel, and are known to shed non-biodegradable micro-fibres constantly. If you remember the micro-granule stuff in soaps a few years ago, synthetic fibres are currently doing the exact same. This is an area most people, vegans and non-vegans, don't know about, but it's a huge problem; plankton eat the fibres, fish eat the plankton, fish starve to death because they get impacted and feel full from the acrylic fibres. Simplified. Synthetic fibres also do not break down if you stop caring for them, not for potentially centuries, unlike animal hide. The production of these synthetic fibres can also be extremely toxic for the people making them.
I don't know enough about plant-based fibres to comment one way or another, but i suspect there are similar concerns with some types of them as with the other points, ie. some of them take an inordinate amount of resources to produce when you could just let a sheep out to graze for itself, and shear it in spring.
I will say that i'm very appreciative there's no quinoa added in this batch nor on the site at all, as that is the poster-child of fad diet ignorance. As an aside, there is so much more to bavarian cuisine than just sausages and beer! You could expand it to all of germany/surrounding countries and have a ton more potential already.
55
Marine
. . .
I'm not uncomfortable with the fact that cruelty happens in the meat industry, or with the "truth" that indeed animals do indeed suffer in factory farms. Those are both things I've fully accepted exist and happen, and that I do what little I can to prevent supporting. I'm uncomfortable with the notion that "if you eat meat then you support animal cruelty/don't support animals/(etc)", because that's an incredibly villainizing sort of statement when the world isn't that simple.
Ugh, it got cut off. Stupid enter key.
Well, whatever. I'm kind of done with trying to debate-- my tl;dr is that I don't like those items because it pushes the "meat = animal cruelty" concept, which is incredibly wrong and paints a really gross picture of literally anyone who eats meat. It's not because I'm "uncomfortable with the truth", I'm completely aware of all the really terrible shit that happens in the meat industry.
I'm not uncomfortable with the fact that cruelty happens in the meat industry, or with the "truth" that indeed animals do indeed suffer in factory farms. Those are both things I've fully accepted exist and happen, and that I do what little I can to prevent supporting. I'm uncomfortable with the notion that "if you eat meat then you support animal cruelty/don't support animals/(etc)", because that's an incredibly villainizing sort of statement when the world isn't that simple.
Ugh, it got cut off. Stupid enter key.
Well, whatever. I'm kind of done with trying to debate-- my tl;dr is that I don't like those items because it pushes the "meat = animal cruelty" concept, which is incredibly wrong and paints a really gross picture of literally anyone who eats meat. It's not because I'm "uncomfortable with the truth", I'm completely aware of all the really terrible shit that happens in the meat industry.
39
Marine
@Blythe
I feel you're kind of missing the point. I can get it being a pride/insiders only thing, but it still seems very much like a "if you eat meat you support animal cruelty/you can't support animals if you eat meat" sort of message. And not only is that kind of a rude thing to imply, but it's also not true in the slightest.
I didn't exactly ask for your backstory, so I guess that feels a bit unnecessary to me; I suppose I understand, though. I'm fully aware that factory farms and battery farms exist, but that's not going to stop me from not supporting those and instead supporting small businesses that provide ethically-raised meat.
I'm not uncomfortable with that, or with the "truth" that indeed animals do
I feel you're kind of missing the point. I can get it being a pride/insiders only thing, but it still seems very much like a "if you eat meat you support animal cruelty/you can't support animals if you eat meat" sort of message. And not only is that kind of a rude thing to imply, but it's also not true in the slightest.
I didn't exactly ask for your backstory, so I guess that feels a bit unnecessary to me; I suppose I understand, though. I'm fully aware that factory farms and battery farms exist, but that's not going to stop me from not supporting those and instead supporting small businesses that provide ethically-raised meat.
I'm not uncomfortable with that, or with the "truth" that indeed animals do
36
Dice
Veganism aside (not gonna touch that), I'm just a bit disappointed to lose the cultural element of the event. I'm going to miss the wears in particular; there's nowhere else putting out the same kind of old traditional/quasi-fantasy wears. I get that there are limitations to the Germanic stuff, but I'd rather have seen the concept expanded rather than completely transformed.
Samwise was only half joking, but turning Alegarten into a summer fair would have been lovely. Local produce (homemade sweets, sloe gin, elderflower wine, jams and preserves, extremely alcoholic spirits made with leftover fruit), traditional clothing, music, dancing, handicrafts, wonky vegetable competitions etc. Maybe even expand it out into a Subea-wide cultural/folk festival (maybe with a different group getting precedence each year and rotating through, but the other lands/people still having a noticeable presence to still emphasis the message of unity). It could have been an opportunity for more world-building.
Samwise was only half joking, but turning Alegarten into a summer fair would have been lovely. Local produce (homemade sweets, sloe gin, elderflower wine, jams and preserves, extremely alcoholic spirits made with leftover fruit), traditional clothing, music, dancing, handicrafts, wonky vegetable competitions etc. Maybe even expand it out into a Subea-wide cultural/folk festival (maybe with a different group getting precedence each year and rotating through, but the other lands/people still having a noticeable presence to still emphasis the message of unity). It could have been an opportunity for more world-building.
55
Beldam
@SystemsReady - I’m a vegan that also has nut allergies. If you ever are interested in swapping info on nut free companies just give me a poke - I know a bunch of safe ones that make tasty foods (not just vegan ones too - I cook meat for my family everyday - and they all eat nut free to protect me cause my allergies are that bad ) - hugs to you because I know what a sucky situation food allergies are! Heart you!
9
Blythe
@Marine The stickers, in particular, are the ones that seem celebratory and specifically for vegans, rather than condescending to non-vegans. So, you wouldn’t be a part of that club or know the secret handshake, but we’re not talking bad about about you, you know? I get that you feel uncomfortable with them, but I feel really uncomfortable with the poop covered foods, like nauseous.
I’d like to share my personal motivation for being vegan with you, in case that helps to make some sense of what some of the items are saying or to understand why some of us get tired of the stuff that’s said about us and try to defend ourselves. I’m not opposed to animals dying. We all die. Death is a part of life and I could argue (at another time) that death is life. What I object to, and choose not to participate in, is cruel treatment of animals during their life, particularly factory farms, which is how the vast majority of meat, dairy and eggs are produced in the world. I live in an amazing community and am fortunate to have many friends who homestead and raise their own animals for consumption, and/or hunt deer. I can honestly say I feel no judgment towards those people, because they value that animal’s life. Factory farms are no joking matter and I have never described to anyone what they’re like, because I think it’s something a person can only find out for themselves. Suffice it to say, that’s where the word “cruel” really came into use regarding animal welfare.
Vegan organizations also often don’t talk about what happens in factory farms because there’s no quicker way to shut another person down. Bit what happens is that the word “cruel” then becomes very abstract and diluted, because no one, except those that have seen it, will have that frame of reference. Then other messages, such as “for the environment” start to get tossed about, to find ways to garner support without making people too uncomfortable. And for some people, they are “vegan for the environment” but the origins of veganism come from factory farming and it is cruel. That can’t be argued (although people try).
I honestly think the items talking about cruelty aren’t intended to shame you. But good messages will often make us uncomfortable. I’m guilty of not discussing my reasons for being vegan with people because I don’t want to make them uncomfortable. But I don’t think it’s doing anyone any good, or giving smart, kind people the benefit of the doubt, when we avoid discomfort instead of confronting the truth head on.
I appreciate you putting yourself out there and responding to me. If you’re ever interested in a non-internet-troll vegan’s perspective on some of the specific things you mentioned later in your comment or for any reason, please feel free to message me.
I’m on board with a pride celebration, too...if Subeta releases a Big Gay Vegan sticker, I’ll be done, because that will be the last item I’ll ever need.
I’d like to share my personal motivation for being vegan with you, in case that helps to make some sense of what some of the items are saying or to understand why some of us get tired of the stuff that’s said about us and try to defend ourselves. I’m not opposed to animals dying. We all die. Death is a part of life and I could argue (at another time) that death is life. What I object to, and choose not to participate in, is cruel treatment of animals during their life, particularly factory farms, which is how the vast majority of meat, dairy and eggs are produced in the world. I live in an amazing community and am fortunate to have many friends who homestead and raise their own animals for consumption, and/or hunt deer. I can honestly say I feel no judgment towards those people, because they value that animal’s life. Factory farms are no joking matter and I have never described to anyone what they’re like, because I think it’s something a person can only find out for themselves. Suffice it to say, that’s where the word “cruel” really came into use regarding animal welfare.
Vegan organizations also often don’t talk about what happens in factory farms because there’s no quicker way to shut another person down. Bit what happens is that the word “cruel” then becomes very abstract and diluted, because no one, except those that have seen it, will have that frame of reference. Then other messages, such as “for the environment” start to get tossed about, to find ways to garner support without making people too uncomfortable. And for some people, they are “vegan for the environment” but the origins of veganism come from factory farming and it is cruel. That can’t be argued (although people try).
I honestly think the items talking about cruelty aren’t intended to shame you. But good messages will often make us uncomfortable. I’m guilty of not discussing my reasons for being vegan with people because I don’t want to make them uncomfortable. But I don’t think it’s doing anyone any good, or giving smart, kind people the benefit of the doubt, when we avoid discomfort instead of confronting the truth head on.
I appreciate you putting yourself out there and responding to me. If you’re ever interested in a non-internet-troll vegan’s perspective on some of the specific things you mentioned later in your comment or for any reason, please feel free to message me.
I’m on board with a pride celebration, too...if Subeta releases a Big Gay Vegan sticker, I’ll be done, because that will be the last item I’ll ever need.
8
Vanitas
To sum up: The items are problematic. Thinking the items are problematic is problematic. Veganism is problematic. Thinking veganism is problematic is problematic. Whatever group you fall into is right, every word you said was right. Objective statistical data and scientific consensus doesn't matter. Deafening self-congratulatory back-patting. Us. Them. Ad infinitum. I'm going to go have a hot dog. Not saying whether it's vegetarian or not.
26
Marine
@Blythe
Mostly these. They just really push a message of "you gotta be vegan/vegetarian to be kind to animals", or "animal cruelty = eating meat", or whatever. Those kinds of vibes. They're uncomfortable, because it's entirely and completely possible to eat meat and still care about the environment and animals, and I've dealt with my fair share of exposure to the "eating meat = animal cruelty" mindset in my life.
I'm just incredibly tired of all of it. It's not "better for the environment", it's not going to do anything about all the animals that exist that have been bred for this purpose, or whatever. It'd all be better off as stuff that pushes awareness or the positives of vegan/vegetarianism without intentionally being all "this is how to be animal-friendly".
I hope that makes sense? It's a topic I'm pretty passionate about, I do very dearly want to see improvements and revamps in the meat and livestock industries, but I also have no intention on giving up meat.
And I get the whole comfort/safe place thing here. There's a lot of support for LGBT people on here, so I can freely express myself without fear of being judged or treated weirdly or whatever, it's nice. I guess I'm just.. kind of taken aback at how quickly people are to say "but not all vegans" when they're trying not to be that one type of vegan, you know? No need to defend yourself if you're not a part of that group.
Mostly these. They just really push a message of "you gotta be vegan/vegetarian to be kind to animals", or "animal cruelty = eating meat", or whatever. Those kinds of vibes. They're uncomfortable, because it's entirely and completely possible to eat meat and still care about the environment and animals, and I've dealt with my fair share of exposure to the "eating meat = animal cruelty" mindset in my life.
I'm just incredibly tired of all of it. It's not "better for the environment", it's not going to do anything about all the animals that exist that have been bred for this purpose, or whatever. It'd all be better off as stuff that pushes awareness or the positives of vegan/vegetarianism without intentionally being all "this is how to be animal-friendly".
I hope that makes sense? It's a topic I'm pretty passionate about, I do very dearly want to see improvements and revamps in the meat and livestock industries, but I also have no intention on giving up meat.
And I get the whole comfort/safe place thing here. There's a lot of support for LGBT people on here, so I can freely express myself without fear of being judged or treated weirdly or whatever, it's nice. I guess I'm just.. kind of taken aback at how quickly people are to say "but not all vegans" when they're trying not to be that one type of vegan, you know? No need to defend yourself if you're not a part of that group.
58
Blythe
@Marine Which items have descriptions that state that a vegan person is better than a non-vegan? I’m trying to figure out which ones are so problematic for so many people, but haven’t found them yet. Some seem celebratory and directed specifically to vegans, so I wonder if people are reading into those? Although, I suspect it’s probably mostly items that have any reference to “cruelty” because I’ve found that to be a super triggering word for people in real-life convos. Do you mind pointing out to us which items specifically are so bothersome?
I get that it’s probably easier for us veggies to see some of the more subtle judgmental stuff being said, simply because we have to live with it on a regular basis, so some may not be as obvious to non-veg folks, but it’s definitely there. And, I speak for myself only, obviously, but I’m super comfortable on Subeta, like a second home, so I don’t mind popping on and defending myself. Whereas, comments elsewhere on the internet I usually just ignore. So, that may be why you see more people here speaking up, if they feel similarly. Since there is some monitoring of what’s posted, the really cruel and derogatory stuff will tend to be absent, so more of us might come out of the woodwork. Not really sure if that’s everyone else’s experience, but I have a feeling it may play a part in why you are seeing more of us posting...just a safer environment, in general. Subeta is pretty great that way. :)
I get that it’s probably easier for us veggies to see some of the more subtle judgmental stuff being said, simply because we have to live with it on a regular basis, so some may not be as obvious to non-veg folks, but it’s definitely there. And, I speak for myself only, obviously, but I’m super comfortable on Subeta, like a second home, so I don’t mind popping on and defending myself. Whereas, comments elsewhere on the internet I usually just ignore. So, that may be why you see more people here speaking up, if they feel similarly. Since there is some monitoring of what’s posted, the really cruel and derogatory stuff will tend to be absent, so more of us might come out of the woodwork. Not really sure if that’s everyone else’s experience, but I have a feeling it may play a part in why you are seeing more of us posting...just a safer environment, in general. Subeta is pretty great that way. :)
5
piers
sad to see one of my favorite holidays (and a holiday for my heritage) go completely vegan. i'd have liked a celebration of food and friends and family in general, not one touting one person's dietary choices over another.
48
Marine
It is kinda funny that people point out that a lot of the items/onsite stuff/etc have passive-aggressive descriptions/themes/"i'm a better person bc i don't eat animal products" stuff going on, and then a lot of vegans pop up and go "we're not all like that".
Like.. uh, we're not attacking you? We're complaining about the items/onsite stuff/approach to this?
I'm sure you guys don't fall into the "obnoxious holier-than-thou" vegans that I've personally put up with, but it's kind of silly for you guys to immediately defend yourselves when it's not /you/ specifically that's being addressed.
Just saying. If you know you're not one of those vegans, why so quick to be defensive?
Like.. uh, we're not attacking you? We're complaining about the items/onsite stuff/approach to this?
I'm sure you guys don't fall into the "obnoxious holier-than-thou" vegans that I've personally put up with, but it's kind of silly for you guys to immediately defend yourselves when it's not /you/ specifically that's being addressed.
Just saying. If you know you're not one of those vegans, why so quick to be defensive?
52
Vinushka
Ditto everything @Blythe said about how vegans get treated. Yes there are some abrasive, obnoxious, militant vegans who not only speak up to inform people but also insult and shame them in the process. However those are in the minority, as compared with the vast numbers of omnivores who take special delight in attacking and mocking vegetarians. As for the food items, non-vegetarians can eat vegan food, while the reverse is not true. So vegan options are appropriate for everyone. I've never brought my walnut meat(less)balls to a party or potluck without having at least two or three people ask me for the recipe. (and then become very confused when they find no meat mentioned) Love these new items, thanks so much for offering them.
6
Nova
So many things to say. First off, thank you for having so many options. Although I eat meat, I try to eat 1-2 vegan meals each day. (Because it's better for *my* health and man... meat is getting expensive.) That being said, I can't eat soy so it's nice to have so many of the kinds of things I eat on site (as I actually have a pet whose TC I use for things I find delicious). Usually everything vegan is tofu this or tofu that in games like this (and sadly in my local grocery stores) and it gets kind of annoying when you're looking for other choices. I do request a million plant/veggie/vegan/etc. related pun achievements & titles however.
Honestly I was waiting for the holiday to change years ago. First off when we separated from the "real world" sort of feel and let Subeta develop it's own lore/culture. Then again I thought perhaps maybe I was wrong when the Asian culture was brought in quite a lot with the newer area. It's had the feel for the last year or two for me though, that we were sort of running out of item ideas. Just like with the steampunk vibe, the new kind of club/cyber-punk deal was brought in or instead of just the zombie vibe, we brought in the cutesy/romantic parts to pandemic. You can only do the same thing for so long. With that being the case, I don't think it's necessarily bad to leave some of the old behind, to see the site grow and change. Though it definitely seems a bit weird to me to take such a meat-focused holiday and turn it into a vegan holiday... that's the part that really makes me go.... hmmm.
I do agree that the wearables are a bit disheartening. I miss the varied wearables, and slogan t-shirts just don't cut it. It's this thing that makes me wish that this holiday was instead merged with Vesnali to make a plant-themed/nature holiday. Growing flowers, plants, lots of plant based food and just pretty fantasy/fairy types of clothing. Some years it's so far after Easter that it really doesn't need to be stuck to it so much and having similar themes I think those would have worked well together.
Although I don't really think we need to add a pride holiday, I would definitely like to see that sort of idea go more into our survival holiday in the romantic side of things each and every year. It would be nice to have some romantic pride of all types. I always loved it when the single-life love was thrown in. I would have liked to see some sort of idea thread about a new holiday for some better input. Or instead just a roaming holiday with a new focus each year. It was fun with the summer festival popped up and it was something completely unexpected. Almost like the theme months, but with much more content. The random holiday, holiday.
Also, guys, seriously do some research before you start saying comments about weight and vegan diets. So many vegans still struggle with weight issues, and it's not something to make light of. Just a simple search on youtube can net you enough of people's experiences with weight gain on vegan/vegetarian diets. Plus it's just a huge disservice to younger people who aren't educated in what healthy food actually looks like. Just because it doesn't have meat or animal products, doesn't mean it's healthy. Just as just because someone is a vegan doesn't mean they're going to be proselytizing about it. What this site needs is a chill out and love each other no matter what holiday. Should have spent one year doing the switch with an Elsa theme. Let it go, all over the place. :P
Honestly I was waiting for the holiday to change years ago. First off when we separated from the "real world" sort of feel and let Subeta develop it's own lore/culture. Then again I thought perhaps maybe I was wrong when the Asian culture was brought in quite a lot with the newer area. It's had the feel for the last year or two for me though, that we were sort of running out of item ideas. Just like with the steampunk vibe, the new kind of club/cyber-punk deal was brought in or instead of just the zombie vibe, we brought in the cutesy/romantic parts to pandemic. You can only do the same thing for so long. With that being the case, I don't think it's necessarily bad to leave some of the old behind, to see the site grow and change. Though it definitely seems a bit weird to me to take such a meat-focused holiday and turn it into a vegan holiday... that's the part that really makes me go.... hmmm.
I do agree that the wearables are a bit disheartening. I miss the varied wearables, and slogan t-shirts just don't cut it. It's this thing that makes me wish that this holiday was instead merged with Vesnali to make a plant-themed/nature holiday. Growing flowers, plants, lots of plant based food and just pretty fantasy/fairy types of clothing. Some years it's so far after Easter that it really doesn't need to be stuck to it so much and having similar themes I think those would have worked well together.
Although I don't really think we need to add a pride holiday, I would definitely like to see that sort of idea go more into our survival holiday in the romantic side of things each and every year. It would be nice to have some romantic pride of all types. I always loved it when the single-life love was thrown in. I would have liked to see some sort of idea thread about a new holiday for some better input. Or instead just a roaming holiday with a new focus each year. It was fun with the summer festival popped up and it was something completely unexpected. Almost like the theme months, but with much more content. The random holiday, holiday.
Also, guys, seriously do some research before you start saying comments about weight and vegan diets. So many vegans still struggle with weight issues, and it's not something to make light of. Just a simple search on youtube can net you enough of people's experiences with weight gain on vegan/vegetarian diets. Plus it's just a huge disservice to younger people who aren't educated in what healthy food actually looks like. Just because it doesn't have meat or animal products, doesn't mean it's healthy. Just as just because someone is a vegan doesn't mean they're going to be proselytizing about it. What this site needs is a chill out and love each other no matter what holiday. Should have spent one year doing the switch with an Elsa theme. Let it go, all over the place. :P
17
Beldam
As a vegan I’m loving the new vegan themed items - but I had to giggle because only one of the foods or dishes I eat on a daily basis were featured (I guess I’m odd) If the artists ever get stuck on what to make for this holiday in the future...poke me. I’m happy to share :)
1
lull
[qoute="@Isilven"]I don't mean to sound ungrateful! I just was hoping for less of the like... "othering" that comes with being vegan/veggie, not everyone who lives/eats like that is all "rarara I am a warrior and you are bad if you are eating meat or other animal products!!" and it's a stigma that I want to help eliminate :3Oh my gosh yes. I am vegetarian and I say you can eat whatever you like it's your decision just like it my decision to eat what I want ^_^
6
Camilla
I agree with everyone that are saying a pride-related event would've been better. I would have loved to see much more in terms of stickers, wearables and other things with a pride theme.
If it wasn't for the fact that I have collections to complete and a gourmand pet that I want to feed 1 of everything to (although as a fan of meat he would rather avoid this stuff) I wouldn't even bother with this "event"...
If it wasn't for the fact that I have collections to complete and a gourmand pet that I want to feed 1 of everything to (although as a fan of meat he would rather avoid this stuff) I wouldn't even bother with this "event"...
6
jensen
@Avel https://subeta.net/ss.php/brewery#/shop/Geschenkboutique -- it's hard to see the links in the news post (at least, it is for me), but "my niece asked [...] to sell our old products" is a link to the old brewery
2
Lia
So many passive-aggressive items aimed at meat eaters.. It's starting to feel like if you're not a part of a minority you don't deserve any respect.
26
Avel
Wow, I was looking forward to the old wearables since I couldn't afford them all before, but I guess that's no longer an option (unless Staff said something about them being relocated, because I couldn't them among the debates).
0
Blythe
I wonder if anyone has counted how many “judgmental vegans” posted repeatedly in the comments every time non-vegan food was released at literally every other Subeta holiday. Versus how many people are criticizing this one because...vegan.
When I was 19, I had a bumper sticker on my car that said “Vegetarian: Indian word for lousy hunter” (umm..problematic in so many ways) and talked shit about “judgmental vegans” whenever it came up, even though the vegans I knew were totally cool and put up with the unfounded criticism and constant commentary on what they’d eat on an island, or if they had a gun to their head or how I could *never* live without cheese. And then I saw some shit I couldn’t unsee and I went vegan. And now I hear the constant commentary and have “friends” and family who literally serve me food with meat or dairy in it and tell me to eat around it or straight up lie and say it’s not there. People find out from others I’m vegan and will approach ME to tell me why it’s unhealthy, judgmental, stupid. There’s fifty people in the building where I work, less than ten know I’m vegan and there are folks that I’ve worked with for over five years that have no idea. I’ve seen a half dozen people at potlucks with food I made on their plates make comments along the lines of “thank god there’s no vegans here.”
Vegans who treated me disrespectfully before I was vegan - zero
Non-vegans who’ve treated me disrespectfully since I went vegan - too effing many to count
Jerks and blowhards come in all shapes and sizes, vegan or not. If you’re getting your opinion of vegans from internet comments or one dude you know, then it’s your loss for not taking the time to know the other awesome people around you that just might be vegan. Seriously, guys...vegan food is inclusive. And no one said you have to wear the merch.
When I was 19, I had a bumper sticker on my car that said “Vegetarian: Indian word for lousy hunter” (umm..problematic in so many ways) and talked shit about “judgmental vegans” whenever it came up, even though the vegans I knew were totally cool and put up with the unfounded criticism and constant commentary on what they’d eat on an island, or if they had a gun to their head or how I could *never* live without cheese. And then I saw some shit I couldn’t unsee and I went vegan. And now I hear the constant commentary and have “friends” and family who literally serve me food with meat or dairy in it and tell me to eat around it or straight up lie and say it’s not there. People find out from others I’m vegan and will approach ME to tell me why it’s unhealthy, judgmental, stupid. There’s fifty people in the building where I work, less than ten know I’m vegan and there are folks that I’ve worked with for over five years that have no idea. I’ve seen a half dozen people at potlucks with food I made on their plates make comments along the lines of “thank god there’s no vegans here.”
Vegans who treated me disrespectfully before I was vegan - zero
Non-vegans who’ve treated me disrespectfully since I went vegan - too effing many to count
Jerks and blowhards come in all shapes and sizes, vegan or not. If you’re getting your opinion of vegans from internet comments or one dude you know, then it’s your loss for not taking the time to know the other awesome people around you that just might be vegan. Seriously, guys...vegan food is inclusive. And no one said you have to wear the merch.
15
lull
Glad to see Alegarten return.
Sad to see the name change especially to Neugarten. Neu is new in German so at some point will the festival be renamed Altgarten? (Alt being old in German). I think Alegarten as a name was good as it was relevant to what was being celebrated.
Maybe with more food related items being added a name that had more to do with food and drink would have been good.
Sad to see the name change especially to Neugarten. Neu is new in German so at some point will the festival be renamed Altgarten? (Alt being old in German). I think Alegarten as a name was good as it was relevant to what was being celebrated.
Maybe with more food related items being added a name that had more to do with food and drink would have been good.
4
ChatLunatique
Quote:
I nearly snerked coffee up my nose! I know what the pets say is random but.... :D
Why Go Vegan has been read to Jolette!
Jolette says, "Maybe that would have tasted better than it read..."
14
Lantern
Yikes the comments on this news post are a shitshow lmao
@Atomic
I mean, technically Gunter isn't German since Germany isn't a thing in the world of Subeta
@Atomic
I mean, technically Gunter isn't German since Germany isn't a thing in the world of Subeta
9
StarShadow
I just hope there will be more items released before the event ends since I honestly don't see anything in the shops I want to buy. Some more nice clothes would be good.
10
Synth
So, a few thoughts.
I was always a big fan of Alegarten because I'm into German stuff and I like beer. But I'm also vegan and I really appreciate these items getting onto the site, so it's hard for me to be upset about the holiday taking this new direction. I was disappointed when it was announced our "Oktoberfest" was moving to the summer and changing but seeing how relatively unpopular this event was in the past, I guess I'm just glad it's still around in some incarnation.
Gunter is one of my favorite NPCs and I really wish you guys hadn't introduced that story about him killing his brother; it was super unnecessary and just taints this whole event (everything it was and whatever it will become). So now we have people trying to contrive some argument that implies veganism is hypocritical because Gunter is a murderer. Oooo...k. These are fictional characters; nobody actually got murdered here, calm down. (And really, why'd it have to be the German character who turned out to be evil?)
Finally, I just want to mention there are some biased and disingenuous claims getting thrown around about veganism in these comments. I urge anyone considering this topic to go look up the information on your own, from as many sources as possible, think about it for yourself and come to whatever conclusion you will...just please make it a well-informed one. Some of the statements I've seen made here should not be taken at face value. Also, please remember there are many ways to be vegan; it doesn't imply anything at all except the avoidance of animal products. It doesn't necessitate the purchase of exotic grains or luxury foods that exploit laborers (at least not any more so than an animal product might). You can eat vegan and local. You can be vegan and sustainable. You can be vegan and do keto. You can be vegan and underweight or overweight or neither.
I'm a pretty easy-going vegan and I'm not looking to engage in any pointless internet debates. But I felt these things needed to be said.
I was always a big fan of Alegarten because I'm into German stuff and I like beer. But I'm also vegan and I really appreciate these items getting onto the site, so it's hard for me to be upset about the holiday taking this new direction. I was disappointed when it was announced our "Oktoberfest" was moving to the summer and changing but seeing how relatively unpopular this event was in the past, I guess I'm just glad it's still around in some incarnation.
Gunter is one of my favorite NPCs and I really wish you guys hadn't introduced that story about him killing his brother; it was super unnecessary and just taints this whole event (everything it was and whatever it will become). So now we have people trying to contrive some argument that implies veganism is hypocritical because Gunter is a murderer. Oooo...k. These are fictional characters; nobody actually got murdered here, calm down. (And really, why'd it have to be the German character who turned out to be evil?)
Finally, I just want to mention there are some biased and disingenuous claims getting thrown around about veganism in these comments. I urge anyone considering this topic to go look up the information on your own, from as many sources as possible, think about it for yourself and come to whatever conclusion you will...just please make it a well-informed one. Some of the statements I've seen made here should not be taken at face value. Also, please remember there are many ways to be vegan; it doesn't imply anything at all except the avoidance of animal products. It doesn't necessitate the purchase of exotic grains or luxury foods that exploit laborers (at least not any more so than an animal product might). You can eat vegan and local. You can be vegan and sustainable. You can be vegan and do keto. You can be vegan and underweight or overweight or neither.
I'm a pretty easy-going vegan and I'm not looking to engage in any pointless internet debates. But I felt these things needed to be said.
14
Marine
also loving all the fat-/body-shaming stuff that occasionally peeks through on here, a+ for "celebrating diversity" guys.
... really, it's not cool, don't do that
... really, it's not cool, don't do that
24
Diana_Marie
I always love how things on here get blown out of proportion.
What a way to start the festival!
Can I have a fat/overweight HA since boy and girls can wear all the clothes so they can be non-gender? O:)
What a way to start the festival!
Can I have a fat/overweight HA since boy and girls can wear all the clothes so they can be non-gender? O:)
6
Sprinter137
No, it's about reducing animal use as much as possible, so therefore the "friends not food" statement is perfectly fitting, so I don't see how it's offensive. I agree the "cruelty free" thing isn't accurate, because there's absolutely no way for anyone to exist without causing harm in some way, no matter what their lifestyle is. I also agree there's other ways to show compassion towards animals besides not eating them. However, I just think it's a little silly that people are getting so angry about this when they're literally just pixel items. I'm sure the subeta staff didn't mean to offend anyone
5
Faery
Two things I would like to point out...
I am almost always thought of as "pushy" the second I tell anyone that I don't eat meat. I could care less if others eat meat around me, but I hear more harassing from people 'who DO eat meat' toward people 'who don't' than the opposite.
The other being that just because I don't eat meat, people think I make my dog eat that way. No. He is a dog... I am a human. Humans can survive without meat, dogs cant.
Please don't think of a whole bunch of different people as one weird forceful idea. It's like thinking all people that practice a religion are extremists.
That being said, I do like that MORE meat free items are being added to the site :) It makes me happy, like it does when I see these items in grocery stores. However, some of the more folksy themed clothing items would still be appropriate, and I can understand why those are missed. I like folksy things too :P The new stuff is cool! It feels a little too modern for the festival though, a bit starbucks-ish.
Either way, thank you for this! I am happy :)
I am almost always thought of as "pushy" the second I tell anyone that I don't eat meat. I could care less if others eat meat around me, but I hear more harassing from people 'who DO eat meat' toward people 'who don't' than the opposite.
The other being that just because I don't eat meat, people think I make my dog eat that way. No. He is a dog... I am a human. Humans can survive without meat, dogs cant.
Please don't think of a whole bunch of different people as one weird forceful idea. It's like thinking all people that practice a religion are extremists.
That being said, I do like that MORE meat free items are being added to the site :) It makes me happy, like it does when I see these items in grocery stores. However, some of the more folksy themed clothing items would still be appropriate, and I can understand why those are missed. I like folksy things too :P The new stuff is cool! It feels a little too modern for the festival though, a bit starbucks-ish.
Either way, thank you for this! I am happy :)
11
Campanella
I'm with Aiyana on this one. I don't mind the idea of a vegan holiday (although this seems more fitting for a permanent shop than a seasonal event to me), but repurposing Alegarten of all possible events into this strikes me as an odd choice. Why not make this theme a part of Vesnali, or a new version of Peka-Boo? The former's already nature-themed and the latter took place in a not-often-used natural area and already used the multiple shops concept; I think both would've felt more fitting than reworking an event based on a real-life cultural festival that's practically as unrelated to veganism as it gets. I wasn't that fond of Alegarten in its original form, but it brought with it a set of items and wearables that otherwise didn't really get much on this site. The wearables especially were nice, in my opinion, since as Sleeb said, a lot of them had an almost fantasy-like, medieval feel to them. Meanwhile, the bulk of the new items - and especially the t-shirts, the only wearables right now - feel... hardly any different from the more normal, non-event items and clothes, at least to me. The art for them is still lovely, but I don't see anything here that screams "yep, that's part of a seasonal event" to me like most event items except for the Oatmeal ones - they feel like regular stuff that could've been added to their corresponding shops instead.
If the reason for repurposing Alegarten into Neugarten was that the artists were struggling to come up with items for a holiday revolving around sausages and beer, then why not expand the scope of the event? Real-life Oktoberfest has a heavy focus on those two, yes, but that's not all there is to it. You could draw from some of the festival attractions for memorabilia, like the ferris wheel, the Hexenschaukel madhouse ride, or the motorcyclists doing performances at the Pitts Todeswand. You could draw from the Schichtl magic performances and the costumes used in those, or from the attire of those participating in the Trachten- und Schützenzug marches, from some of the participating groups (marksmen clubs, musicians, fishers, etc), to some of the still less represented foods and drinks (coffee, certain sweets like Schokoküsse, chicken- and duck meat dishes, etc), or types of festive clothing and hair styles that weren't added in previous Alegarten runs. If that's not enough, expanding it to drawing from German culture as a whole instead of just Oktoberfest should also provide more things to work with, and wouldn't be too far removed from the original theme of the event.
I realize it's too late to tweak the current incarnation of the event much, but I hope this can be taken into consideration for the future - it'd be a shame to lose the original event theme altogether, in my opinon.
Aiyana on this one. I don't mind the idea of a vegan holiday (although this seems more fitting for a permanent shop than a seasonal event to me), but repurposing Alegarten of all possible events into this strikes me as an odd choice. Why not make this theme a part of Vesnali, or a new version of Peka-Boo? The former's already nature-themed and the latter took place in a not-often-used natural area and already used the multiple shops concept; I think both would've felt more fitting than reworking an event based on a real-life cultural festival that's practically as unrelated to veganism as it gets. I wasn't that fond of Alegarten in its original form, but it brought with it a set of items and wearables that otherwise didn't really get much on this site. The wearables especially were nice, in my opinion, since as Sleeb said, a lot of them had an almost fantasy-like, medieval feel to them. Meanwhile, the bulk of the new items - and especially the t-shirts, the only wearables right now - feel... hardly any different from the more normal, non-event items and clothes, at least to me. The art for them is still lovely, but I don't see anything here that screams "yep, that's part of a seasonal event" to me like most event items except for the Oatmeal ones - they feel like regular stuff that could've been added to their corresponding shops instead.If the reason for repurposing Alegarten into Neugarten was that the artists were struggling to come up with items for a holiday revolving around sausages and beer, then why not expand the scope of the event? Real-life Oktoberfest has a heavy focus on those two, yes, but that's not all there is to it. You could draw from some of the festival attractions for memorabilia, like the ferris wheel, the Hexenschaukel madhouse ride, or the motorcyclists doing performances at the Pitts Todeswand. You could draw from the Schichtl magic performances and the costumes used in those, or from the attire of those participating in the Trachten- und Schützenzug marches, from some of the participating groups (marksmen clubs, musicians, fishers, etc), to some of the still less represented foods and drinks (coffee, certain sweets like Schokoküsse, chicken- and duck meat dishes, etc), or types of festive clothing and hair styles that weren't added in previous Alegarten runs. If that's not enough, expanding it to drawing from German culture as a whole instead of just Oktoberfest should also provide more things to work with, and wouldn't be too far removed from the original theme of the event.
I realize it's too late to tweak the current incarnation of the event much, but I hope this can be taken into consideration for the future - it'd be a shame to lose the original event theme altogether, in my opinon.
43
Alcremie
Aw, I like the old name better. Not surprised it started already, I was expecting it to start in July however. Oh well, time to throw away all my sP again.
0
Sprinter137
No one here seems to understand that ethical veganism is about animal rights and not welfare, so the treatment of the animal is irrelevant. Everyone says how vegans are "my way or the highway", well I'm seeing an awful lot of that here from meat eaters basically saying how stupid and useless veganism is and we should all just eat humane animal products. Sorry but I don't feel comfortable eating or wearing animals no matter how they're treated, and that should be my decision. Yes maybe the items are a bit passive aggressive, but it just reflects the vegan philosophy. If you don't like them, just don't buy them, and if you don't like veganism, don't be vegan. You don't need to write long rants about all your personal annoyances related to veganism. Subeta isn't made just for you, so there's bound to be things on here you don't like, deal with it.
7
Targaryen
I think everyone should have a couple of days a week with no meat! Like have a P and J sandwich or a bean burrito for lunch and a salad for dinner!
2
Xiria
@Amber
I didn't remember that but I went back and checked and you're right, Gunter does mention vegan hot dogs. I guess that does make it a lot less sudden. Thanks for the info! (Here's the news post in question for anyone that wanted to see.)
I didn't remember that but I went back and checked and you're right, Gunter does mention vegan hot dogs. I guess that does make it a lot less sudden. Thanks for the info! (Here's the news post in question for anyone that wanted to see.)
0
Marine
addition:
oh there's even "honey alternatives" in the manwar shop, even though, you know... honeybees actually completely and utterly benefit from us taking and using their honey because they make way too much for their hives to comfortably store.
there is absolutely no reason to use honey alternatives when buying honey and supporting small beekeeping businesses is a hugely important thing to do with honeybees being threatened by pesticides and whatnot. conservation and all that. people using "honey alternatives" will never cease to annoy the hell out of me because of this.
yeah, I just... I dunno about this one.
the "cruelty free" thing, "friends not food" shirt + the seeming "show compassion for animals by not eating them" and all that passive-aggressive judgment... I really, really don't like those at all, especially since my girlfriend in particular recently started a very meat-heavy diet for her health and she's incredibly caring and passionate towards animals. :| I eat a fair amount of meat, I can't imagine letting go of that-- hell, I even want to get into hunting to help the environment around here, because the deer are seriously overpopulated and need management. Animal and environmental welfare are both seriously important subjects for me, but I'm gonna eat meat anyways because it's tasty and because it's possible to get meat from happy animals.
"Friends not food" sentiments can get the hell outta here.
oh there's even "honey alternatives" in the manwar shop, even though, you know... honeybees actually completely and utterly benefit from us taking and using their honey because they make way too much for their hives to comfortably store.
there is absolutely no reason to use honey alternatives when buying honey and supporting small beekeeping businesses is a hugely important thing to do with honeybees being threatened by pesticides and whatnot. conservation and all that. people using "honey alternatives" will never cease to annoy the hell out of me because of this.
yeah, I just... I dunno about this one.
the "cruelty free" thing, "friends not food" shirt + the seeming "show compassion for animals by not eating them" and all that passive-aggressive judgment... I really, really don't like those at all, especially since my girlfriend in particular recently started a very meat-heavy diet for her health and she's incredibly caring and passionate towards animals. :| I eat a fair amount of meat, I can't imagine letting go of that-- hell, I even want to get into hunting to help the environment around here, because the deer are seriously overpopulated and need management. Animal and environmental welfare are both seriously important subjects for me, but I'm gonna eat meat anyways because it's tasty and because it's possible to get meat from happy animals.
"Friends not food" sentiments can get the hell outta here.
54
Xezvi
I see a lot of people in the comments who are like “oh gosh, here comes the drama…” but I’m actually really enjoying the back and forth below. Even if some people are angry, they’re prioritizing making their points over insulting others, and as someone who is considering making changes in their diet, I’m grateful to see the ecological and moral pitfalls of all classes of products. I may have never known about many of these things without discussions like this. So thank you to everyone!
I do get what people are saying about the revamped holiday feeling like a completely different beast, even if I don't drink and found the sausage repetitive. I hope the staff will brainstorm some good ways to bring back in the vibes of the old Alegarten while still bringing their new content to the table. (I second Sleeb's feels about the wearables.)
I do get what people are saying about the revamped holiday feeling like a completely different beast, even if I don't drink and found the sausage repetitive. I hope the staff will brainstorm some good ways to bring back in the vibes of the old Alegarten while still bringing their new content to the table. (I second Sleeb's feels about the wearables.)
13
Sleeb
@Samurai
Yeah, I rather liked it the way it was, and the unique style of clothing that could easily translated to D&D style characters, no other holiday was like that. Now we get really cheesy, cheap looking graphic tees talking about veganism? No thank you???
I would like the fantasy/Olden Style clothing back.
Yeah, I rather liked it the way it was, and the unique style of clothing that could easily translated to D&D style characters, no other holiday was like that. Now we get really cheesy, cheap looking graphic tees talking about veganism? No thank you???
I would like the fantasy/Olden Style clothing back.
36
Marine
Oh. Huh.
Well, that's cool. I guess.
Some of the items/themes here do definitely feel passive-aggressive, though, I'm feeling that.
Even just the "cruelty free" thing has always bugged me as a concept; like... okay, so all of the other folks do accept cruelty into their lives and diets? Even though the best meat comes from happy animals and it's pretty obvious? (I'm very interested in animal psychology and behavior, so this is kind of a huge part of that.) Besides, veganism isn't "cruelty free" when you think about all the human laborers, their treatment, and just the unnecessary/excess resources put into growing this stuff.
I liked the old holiday better, just because I've never been comfortable with aggressive/passive-aggressive veganism for a lot of reasons, and there didn't need to be a dramatic change like this. And in agreement with others-- if you wanted Vegan stuff, you could've lumped it with Vesnali or whatever, but.. I'd have really preferred a June-July holiday be a pride thing. If anything, this could've just been a celebration of alternate diets/lifestyles/culture rather than.. this. (++ yeah it does feel really sudden)
Well, that's cool. I guess.
Some of the items/themes here do definitely feel passive-aggressive, though, I'm feeling that.
Even just the "cruelty free" thing has always bugged me as a concept; like... okay, so all of the other folks do accept cruelty into their lives and diets? Even though the best meat comes from happy animals and it's pretty obvious? (I'm very interested in animal psychology and behavior, so this is kind of a huge part of that.) Besides, veganism isn't "cruelty free" when you think about all the human laborers, their treatment, and just the unnecessary/excess resources put into growing this stuff.
I liked the old holiday better, just because I've never been comfortable with aggressive/passive-aggressive veganism for a lot of reasons, and there didn't need to be a dramatic change like this. And in agreement with others-- if you wanted Vegan stuff, you could've lumped it with Vesnali or whatever, but.. I'd have really preferred a June-July holiday be a pride thing. If anything, this could've just been a celebration of alternate diets/lifestyles/culture rather than.. this. (++ yeah it does feel really sudden)
51
Aquabreeze
@Samurai I'll give you the German language point but most alt-right /are/ neo-Nazis. Thanks.
25
Johniarty
I’ve already seen some fatphobia in the comments. Lort. This is why I was uncomfortable with the idea of a vegan festival.
I’m adding my voice to the requests for a queer pride event, because I would love to have Pride related gear to wear as a queer user. Especially since it’s June, y’know?
I’m adding my voice to the requests for a queer pride event, because I would love to have Pride related gear to wear as a queer user. Especially since it’s June, y’know?
32
Sleeb
I...don't like any of the wearables at al now. There used to be almost a fantasy feel to it, now it's all t-shirts.
29
Aquabreeze
Also @METROID I love, love LOVE the idea of Altgarden, even just keeping the Neugarten name but expanding it to include other alternative diets. I would hoard every Gluten-Free and Kosher item I could get my hands on. (In America, "alt" has some unfortunate connotations with the "alt-right", aka neo-Nazis)
4
Amber
@Kaiyo I’ll look into it after I finish cooking dinner! :)
@Xiria Gunter converting to veganism isn’t sudden, though! He did items last year (you can find them in the brewery) that touched on the vegan theme and even mentioned it in news post during Alegarten.
As far as more non-food related items, that’s what Rumi’s lifestyle and fashion tent/shop/stall is for. Who knows what kind of items she’ll have next year. :) Also there’s nothing to say we won’t have booze items for other holidays (hi the pirates like a good drink or two).
@Xiria Gunter converting to veganism isn’t sudden, though! He did items last year (you can find them in the brewery) that touched on the vegan theme and even mentioned it in news post during Alegarten.
As far as more non-food related items, that’s what Rumi’s lifestyle and fashion tent/shop/stall is for. Who knows what kind of items she’ll have next year. :) Also there’s nothing to say we won’t have booze items for other holidays (hi the pirates like a good drink or two).
5
Aquabreeze
Relevant PSA to all (IRL) pet owners: If you are vegan, great. But please for the love of god don't force your dogs or cats to be vegan. They're not like humans, they're obligate carnivores. They will become malnourished and possibly die if you feed them only vegan food. Thank you <3
55
Seoni
Cool new food items for my pet.
Also I tried vegan cheese once and couldn't stomach it, so more power to people who can.
Also I tried vegan cheese once and couldn't stomach it, so more power to people who can.
0
Xiria
At first I didn't mind the idea of including some new vegan items this year, but thought Gunter converting to veganism seemed really sudden and I thought the "if you're not ready to make the full switch yet" thing sounded super passive aggressive. Now that Gunter's speech has been reworded to be less judgmental and I've seen the artists say in the comments here how hard it is to come up with more sausage and beer items after all these years, I like the idea much better than I did at first and think it makes more sense.
If I may make a few suggestions for the future:
1. I like Metroid's ideas of calling it Altgarten and expanding to include other alternative diet foods in the coming years.
2. A couple people have mentioned that it used to be a cultural festival. Would it be possible to work in some new non-food items related to German culture to help reference that?
3. If people still want new sausage and booze items but the artists are out of ideas for those, have you considered running another contest for users to submit their own ideas/designs for new items?
If I may make a few suggestions for the future:
1. I like Metroid's ideas of calling it Altgarten and expanding to include other alternative diet foods in the coming years.
2. A couple people have mentioned that it used to be a cultural festival. Would it be possible to work in some new non-food items related to German culture to help reference that?
3. If people still want new sausage and booze items but the artists are out of ideas for those, have you considered running another contest for users to submit their own ideas/designs for new items?
26
Muerte
@Rah
I can't wait to see what will come in the coming years !
I used THIS as a base for my cookies ! I used 1 tablespoon vanilla, mashed banana instead of applesauce, mixed all two cups of chips in instead of their odd process, and I didn't use flaked sea salt on the tops. I also froze the scooped dough before baking it because it's how I do Holiday baking prep.
Whoa, that is a shocker ! It sucks finding out something so good has allergy-inducing ingredients in them. Luckily my allergy isn't too bad.
I can't wait to see what will come in the coming years !
I used THIS as a base for my cookies ! I used 1 tablespoon vanilla, mashed banana instead of applesauce, mixed all two cups of chips in instead of their odd process, and I didn't use flaked sea salt on the tops. I also froze the scooped dough before baking it because it's how I do Holiday baking prep.
Whoa, that is a shocker ! It sucks finding out something so good has allergy-inducing ingredients in them. Luckily my allergy isn't too bad.
0
far
Everyone is feeling attacked about what they eat (or don't eat) but we all should just ...
Stop eating and live off of love and water.
Oh shit. There won't be any water soon.
Stop eating and live off of love and water.
Oh shit. There won't be any water soon.
27
Kaiyo
Why a 30 sec wait timer on buying old items from Anne, it’ll take forever to purchase all I missed. :disappointed_relieved:
2
METROID
@Amber
Maybe Altgarten then? For alternative eating choices or diets?
(btw, I just remembered: add non-dairy and other kinds of ice creams (frozen custards, frozen yogurts, sorbets, etc.) to the quota for next year for ideas. I've had to give up regular ice cream because it destroys my gut. I've discovered the joy of cashew milk ice cream though.)
Maybe Altgarten then? For alternative eating choices or diets?
(btw, I just remembered: add non-dairy and other kinds of ice creams (frozen custards, frozen yogurts, sorbets, etc.) to the quota for next year for ideas. I've had to give up regular ice cream because it destroys my gut. I've discovered the joy of cashew milk ice cream though.)
12
Stiles
idk if i can offer, i'm not asking for anything at all in return or a trade this is just free, but if anyone needs help buying something from the shops, i can help <3
1
CakeMoose
Eeehhhhhh... glad I got here after Gunter had his post reworded. I'm in it for the wardrobe achievements and Gourmand titles, less so for passive-aggressive angry vegan stereotypes.
21
Sprinter137
Okay is that long tirade calling veganism "stupid" really necessary? The subeta staff isn't even insulting ANYONE, anyone that thinks they are needs to unpick their wedgie and stop being so damn sensitive over pixel items. Everyone here has been very respectful and never said anything about meat eaters being horrible people, so how the hell was all that acid spewing rage called for? Maybe you should check your OWN attitude before you say anything about vegans.
13
Stiles
@METROID i understand this argument. i was more simply saying that its nice to see all the items on here drawn out in pixels and i personally don't see the exclusiveness, but i'm not on that side of the argument, so i can't speak for others. i just see how nice the items are and i'm collecting them all for my pet on here, and tbh while i've been a part of the arguments in the past, i don't see why every holiday on here has to bring another argument. if it's an outrageous thing, i see that. and again, i'm on the other side of this so i may be bias, but all of the items seem to be vegan friendly, not necessarily attacking or trying to drag anyone else down, just embracing vegan. everyone has their own lifestyle in which they live, and that is their thing. and while i'm sure there's a solid definition in which "vegan" is placed under, i don't see anything with this re-branding of a holiday or its items as playing into that. i kind of see a lot of hate and unkind things in the world in general, and i suppose i'm a hippie, but i would like one thing to be fun and non argumentative on here for once unless it calls for it. i don't believe this does. anyway, be blessed everyone <3
7
Samwise
i mean, i feel like alegarten would have more naturally transformed into a hobbit festival....
INSPIRATION FOR U:
just sayin.
INSPIRATION FOR U:
just sayin.
35
Amber
@METROID "It was ze right time for me, und even if it isn't ze right time for you to make ze full switch or being vegan isn't something you're into or able to do, I hope you'll come und enjoy some new foods und ideas during this festival." - Gunter
I see the festival as more try new things and not YOU MUST LIVE YOUR LIFE THE WAY I DO DO NOT HURT ANIMALS BECAUSE I LOVE OATMEAL (i did that in caps because honestly that's just how I see gunter speaking always. at volume 10000). There are some judgmental vegans out there but tbh there's judgmental people in every group (religious, culture-based, etc). I don't see Gunter being one to turn people away just because they don't agree with his viewpoint (unless you're his brother because then you get murdered)
I see the festival as more try new things and not YOU MUST LIVE YOUR LIFE THE WAY I DO DO NOT HURT ANIMALS BECAUSE I LOVE OATMEAL (i did that in caps because honestly that's just how I see gunter speaking always. at volume 10000). There are some judgmental vegans out there but tbh there's judgmental people in every group (religious, culture-based, etc). I don't see Gunter being one to turn people away just because they don't agree with his viewpoint (unless you're his brother because then you get murdered)
15
METROID
@Stiles
i think the criticisms are more towards how the veganism is being portrayed in this context. I guess because it's a very, all or none kind of attitude, as opposed to various degrees of how committed one is to a vegan lifestyle. For example, one of my friends eats vegan, but buys shoes and clothing products even if they have animal hide used. Would that make her a fake vegan in eyes of other vegans?
I guess the concern people have is whether this Neugarten is respectful to all types of vegans out there, not just being "all vegan or you're not welcome" kind of mentality.
i think the criticisms are more towards how the veganism is being portrayed in this context. I guess because it's a very, all or none kind of attitude, as opposed to various degrees of how committed one is to a vegan lifestyle. For example, one of my friends eats vegan, but buys shoes and clothing products even if they have animal hide used. Would that make her a fake vegan in eyes of other vegans?
I guess the concern people have is whether this Neugarten is respectful to all types of vegans out there, not just being "all vegan or you're not welcome" kind of mentality.
12
Stiles
@METROID everyone is entitled, of course. i was just kind of surprised? maybe its because i'm on the vegan/veggie side of it that i don't get how people are offended, but i definitely can't speak for everyone or say how to feel. i hope everyone can have fun anyway, though. <3 (i'm on a heart spree sorry for all the hearts everyone if its annoying)
3
Sprinter137
@Stiles
Ikr, I don't even see anything condescending here, at least not enough to get defensive about. That is nothing compared to some of the hateful things the really hardcore activists say on a daily basis, lol.
@lioness
That would be cool :). I'm not part of the LGBT community but I support them 100%, and I'm always up for more diversity on here. Plus I love rainbows xD
Ikr, I don't even see anything condescending here, at least not enough to get defensive about. That is nothing compared to some of the hateful things the really hardcore activists say on a daily basis, lol.
@lioness
That would be cool :). I'm not part of the LGBT community but I support them 100%, and I'm always up for more diversity on here. Plus I love rainbows xD
6
METROID
@Stiles
Actually, this is pretty tame all things considered lol. Believe me, I've seen worse in past years.
Everyone is allowed to voice their opinion, be it unpopular or part of the majority. I've never been an Alegarten fan, so if it ended permanently, I wouldn't have batted an eye.
I'm willing to give this Neugarten thing a chance though, even if it's not really my kind of thing.
Actually, this is pretty tame all things considered lol. Believe me, I've seen worse in past years.
Everyone is allowed to voice their opinion, be it unpopular or part of the majority. I've never been an Alegarten fan, so if it ended permanently, I wouldn't have batted an eye.
I'm willing to give this Neugarten thing a chance though, even if it's not really my kind of thing.
3
Aiyana
i'm a little sad because i'm german and i thought it was cool that we had an annual traditional oktoberfest event on the site. it was one of the main things that piqued my interest enough to keep playing when i joined 5 years ago, as weird as that might sound. i'm definitely NOT against attempts at inclusivity like this, i'm actually really happy to see so many people connecting with it and appreciating the representation. i just think that it was a bit odd to completely revamp a short cultural event like alegarten (like Samurai mentioned) into a vegan-centric event. it seems... contrived? i'm not sure how to phrase what i'm trying to say, but i'm really not trying to be rude.
36
Stiles
...there's a lot of anger okay. but i was excited to come on and see all the veggie/vegan items and now people are trying to make everyone feel bad about it. alright. but thank you for the items, and i hope everyone enjoys it <3 i hope i can get everything, kind of overwhelmed. be kind to animals <3
7
Amber
@METROID Vegan food isn't all healthy! It's just a different way of making things. I personally tend to go more vegetarian/vegan with dishes because I try to keep kosher, so I can't mix meat and dairy. Vegan options give me a chance to have things I love, like philly cheesesteaks (with tofu instead of meat, so I can have all the cheese).
10
METROID
Why Go Vegan has been read to Elfric!
Elfric says, "What a waste of paper..."
He said it, not me LOL
I kinda don't like how Alegarten became all health conscience. And I want to see gunther get arrested anyways.
Elfric says, "What a waste of paper..."
He said it, not me LOL
I kinda don't like how Alegarten became all health conscience. And I want to see gunther get arrested anyways.
21
Saix
This is really random but all the support for something that not everyone can relate to but will be appreciated by those who do is a real nice idea and makes me wish there was a LGBT/Pride mini event or something *w* Not trying to make this about me by the way I just love this and I can't help think about the cool stickers and plushies and food that the staff would be able to come up with lol.
Sorry for the self indulgent post in amongst the serious discussion ;w;
Sorry for the self indulgent post in amongst the serious discussion ;w;
24
TaleSpin
AHHH!! I absolutely LOVE the new items and obviously need them ALL! Just wish there was a "Kale KING" shirt too because I'm the self-proclaimed king of kale, yo... but hey, I'm not complaining. Vegan cheese! Non-dairy milks! KALE sticker! NOOCH (nutritional yeast)! Cruelty free! Friends not Food! I love it all!! I've been vegan for over seven years (and vegetarian for almost twenty) and this just makes my day. I love you Gunter! ^__^ ♥️
6
LilyValentine
My girlfriend is a vegan foodie. The pet I have whose TC is stuff that reminds me of her is going to get HUGE.
But only with the food items, because she loathes condescending, obnoxious vegans who lecture others about their choices, cares about the human cost of veganism as well as the animal (very few vegans seem interested in whether their choices exploit underprivileged humans) and believes that caring about animals in ANY way is preferable to saying "Well, you're not vegan, so nothing else you do matters," thus encouraging people to give up ANY type of service they may be doing because it's "not wanted" or "doesn't count." She was also genuinely shocked to realize that people like this exist - she thought it was basically a myth. Then she met literally every vegan friend I've ever had and was horrified. Her words, "No wonder people hate us."
Of course she also has a sense of humor and laughs at the jokes about how a vegan will always tell you they're vegan - because she gets that no one has anything against veganism as a practice, they just have something against people who are obnoxious about it. She doesn't wear "Animal Lives Matter" t-shirts (which are a thing, complete with the BLM logo - because equating black people with animals isn't problematic at all); she wears the t-shirt I got her that says "Hail Seitan."
So, you know, this shop didn't have to be condescending and passive-aggressive; it could've been cute and fun. But y'all do you, I guess.
But only with the food items, because she loathes condescending, obnoxious vegans who lecture others about their choices, cares about the human cost of veganism as well as the animal (very few vegans seem interested in whether their choices exploit underprivileged humans) and believes that caring about animals in ANY way is preferable to saying "Well, you're not vegan, so nothing else you do matters," thus encouraging people to give up ANY type of service they may be doing because it's "not wanted" or "doesn't count." She was also genuinely shocked to realize that people like this exist - she thought it was basically a myth. Then she met literally every vegan friend I've ever had and was horrified. Her words, "No wonder people hate us."
Of course she also has a sense of humor and laughs at the jokes about how a vegan will always tell you they're vegan - because she gets that no one has anything against veganism as a practice, they just have something against people who are obnoxious about it. She doesn't wear "Animal Lives Matter" t-shirts (which are a thing, complete with the BLM logo - because equating black people with animals isn't problematic at all); she wears the t-shirt I got her that says "Hail Seitan."
So, you know, this shop didn't have to be condescending and passive-aggressive; it could've been cute and fun. But y'all do you, I guess.
51
Quentin
>avoiding any and all foods/products that involve animals in order to be "cruelty free"
>never donated or even heard of the ASPCA, never bothered to learn about farm animals or how to care for them, never volunteered to animal shelters or worked for ranches
>"omg you eat meat?? how cruel! animals are brutalized for your lifestyle!"
I'm honestly surprised by the amount of blind selfishness in some parts of the vegan community. Many vegans say they don't eat meat in order to help animals, but in the end, dairy/egg/meat farmers produce the same amount of milk, eggs, and meat whether people buy them from the shelves or not. Being vegan for the sake of animal welfare can make you feel better about yourself, but you need to understand that you are not doing as much as you think you are in this country. If you want to help animals, you don't need to quit buying animal products cold-turkey. What really helps is buying from farms that treat their animals right. Like, buying cage-free eggs, pasture fed beef and milk, etc. This promotes the GOOD farms, farms owned privately by people who CARE and know how to treat animals respectfully, from when the creature enters the world until it departs from it. Avoid products that say something along the lines of "100% free of antibiotics" - this means that animals like cows who've may have gotten very sick have never been treated with antibiotics in order to recover, so they suffer longer with illness (many dairy cows are given antibiotics by vets at some point of their lives when absolutely necessary). The cow's milk will still be good to drink after she stops taking her medicine. Avoid highly-processed animal products from factory farms, where the animals may never see the light of day or get to even walk around. THESE are the kind of things that help animals. Support your local farms who care. Volunteer for animal shelters and farmers if they are hiring. Learn about animals you may not encounter on a daily basis instead of following what some "vegans" say is right.
But hey, if guilt-tripping people is what it takes to gets this country's obesity rate under control, so be it.
>never donated or even heard of the ASPCA, never bothered to learn about farm animals or how to care for them, never volunteered to animal shelters or worked for ranches
>"omg you eat meat?? how cruel! animals are brutalized for your lifestyle!"
I'm honestly surprised by the amount of blind selfishness in some parts of the vegan community. Many vegans say they don't eat meat in order to help animals, but in the end, dairy/egg/meat farmers produce the same amount of milk, eggs, and meat whether people buy them from the shelves or not. Being vegan for the sake of animal welfare can make you feel better about yourself, but you need to understand that you are not doing as much as you think you are in this country. If you want to help animals, you don't need to quit buying animal products cold-turkey. What really helps is buying from farms that treat their animals right. Like, buying cage-free eggs, pasture fed beef and milk, etc. This promotes the GOOD farms, farms owned privately by people who CARE and know how to treat animals respectfully, from when the creature enters the world until it departs from it. Avoid products that say something along the lines of "100% free of antibiotics" - this means that animals like cows who've may have gotten very sick have never been treated with antibiotics in order to recover, so they suffer longer with illness (many dairy cows are given antibiotics by vets at some point of their lives when absolutely necessary). The cow's milk will still be good to drink after she stops taking her medicine. Avoid highly-processed animal products from factory farms, where the animals may never see the light of day or get to even walk around. THESE are the kind of things that help animals. Support your local farms who care. Volunteer for animal shelters and farmers if they are hiring. Learn about animals you may not encounter on a daily basis instead of following what some "vegans" say is right.
But hey, if guilt-tripping people is what it takes to gets this country's obesity rate under control, so be it.
65
Aquabreeze
SO. I have to echo what some people have said here (Like @Valiska, I also have Celiac disease, so going vegan isn't an option for me) about the militant sort of veganism. I understand the sentiments behind it, really I do. But it feels like I'm being talked down to here.
Also, I honestly don't get why this couldn't have been a new holiday instead of replacing Alegarten? Or an off-shoot of Alegarten? I liked Subetan Oktoberfest the way it was, tbh
Also, I honestly don't get why this couldn't have been a new holiday instead of replacing Alegarten? Or an off-shoot of Alegarten? I liked Subetan Oktoberfest the way it was, tbh
43
Sopheroo
"Saying goodbye to my old ways was tough, but rewarding"
So no more murdering other human being for your own benefit either, I take it?
So no more murdering other human being for your own benefit either, I take it?
32
Valiska
Thanks @Rah.
@Yam, I'm not ostracising anyone! :) I just tried to explain why people react badly when some people bring up their veganism. Obviously not everyone who is vegan is like that, which is WHY I was disappointed with the initial post and some of the items. Just don't freak out when I put some of that nut cheese on the gluten free bread with some roast beef and we're good.
(Also pass the avocado chocolate mousse, because that and guacamole are the only ways I can stand avocado)
@Yam, I'm not ostracising anyone! :) I just tried to explain why people react badly when some people bring up their veganism. Obviously not everyone who is vegan is like that, which is WHY I was disappointed with the initial post and some of the items. Just don't freak out when I put some of that nut cheese on the gluten free bread with some roast beef and we're good.
(Also pass the avocado chocolate mousse, because that and guacamole are the only ways I can stand avocado)
16
Sketch
I was going to say some items felt a little passive aggressive but it seems like people already did it for me. Thanks I guess.
37
Sprinter137
@Valiska
Well I really have had people say why they can't go vegan when I just MENTION that I am, not so much in this post, lol. I do agree that not everyone can be vegan, just like not everyone can "cure" their illnesses and ditch their meds eating organic/whole foods (which is something I myself find infuriating with some vegans). But I think most everyone is capable of making more animal/environment conscious choices in their lives, and while many people already do, there are a lot who just want to do whatever they want and don't seem to give a crap about how their actions affect the earth or animal welfare. THAT I have a problem with, more than the idea of "every human/animal interaction is horribly cruel" like a lot of vegans put out there.
@Yam Yes, it's more of a personal problem than a vegan problem. I've seen people with any other sort of belief system or opinion with the same "my way or the highway" attitude. I think you just see rude vegans more because our society basically revolves around eating or wearing animals, so there's a lot of opportunity for them to say things.
Well I really have had people say why they can't go vegan when I just MENTION that I am, not so much in this post, lol. I do agree that not everyone can be vegan, just like not everyone can "cure" their illnesses and ditch their meds eating organic/whole foods (which is something I myself find infuriating with some vegans). But I think most everyone is capable of making more animal/environment conscious choices in their lives, and while many people already do, there are a lot who just want to do whatever they want and don't seem to give a crap about how their actions affect the earth or animal welfare. THAT I have a problem with, more than the idea of "every human/animal interaction is horribly cruel" like a lot of vegans put out there.
@Yam Yes, it's more of a personal problem than a vegan problem. I've seen people with any other sort of belief system or opinion with the same "my way or the highway" attitude. I think you just see rude vegans more because our society basically revolves around eating or wearing animals, so there's a lot of opportunity for them to say things.
9
Rah
@Valiska - i've gone ahead and had Gunter adjust his words a bit as I do think you're right that there are some people that are not able to go vegan (or would just really struggle with it which is still very hard) due to dietary restrictions or living in food deserts or many other reasons. Or they just aren't interested and may never be, but are down with trying any kind of food!
Mostly I think if you can and want to, just cut down on animal products. I also agree with the eating local when you can, but that's a whole further discussion.
If you're (anyone here) is interested in learning more, there are many resources out there to help you on your specific journey. I can only really speak for the kind of person I am and what I have had to face, I may not be the right person to help people on a different journey - but I can recommend some thought-provoking things to watch and books to read if desired.
If somebody wants to know why I'm vegan/working towards being vegan then I'll tell them, until then I really just want to share food and be able to go out with friends to places to eat and be able to have more than a side salad or fries, or go to somebody's house and not have them be super uncomfortable with me - which is something that will come from more information, more representation and more people knowing what to even cook!
Mostly I think if you can and want to, just cut down on animal products. I also agree with the eating local when you can, but that's a whole further discussion.
If you're (anyone here) is interested in learning more, there are many resources out there to help you on your specific journey. I can only really speak for the kind of person I am and what I have had to face, I may not be the right person to help people on a different journey - but I can recommend some thought-provoking things to watch and books to read if desired.
If somebody wants to know why I'm vegan/working towards being vegan then I'll tell them, until then I really just want to share food and be able to go out with friends to places to eat and be able to have more than a side salad or fries, or go to somebody's house and not have them be super uncomfortable with me - which is something that will come from more information, more representation and more people knowing what to even cook!
14
Andrea
@Rah
That's really interesting! I didn't know any of that, but I drink cider, not beer, and and I'm typically more concerned with the lack of additives than how it's filtered. I'ma read more into that, I like learning new things. Plus my coworkers family has a brewery and are the type of people who would probably love trying to make a vegan beer.
That's really interesting! I didn't know any of that, but I drink cider, not beer, and and I'm typically more concerned with the lack of additives than how it's filtered. I'ma read more into that, I like learning new things. Plus my coworkers family has a brewery and are the type of people who would probably love trying to make a vegan beer.
2
Yam
@Valiska
while i agree with you that the some people can sometimes selectively ignore why others cannot go vegan, i'd like to point out that phrases such as "cruelty free" are actual labels used in the US for products and food, and regardless of what they might imply they are identifying labels that people actually use. Also, I have yet to find an item description (though i haven't looked at them all yet) that implies that people who aren't vegan just "aren't ready".
I totally see your point, but would just like to point out that those are specific to certain (definitely problematic) people rather than the vegan community as a whole, and while its important to point them out, its dangerous to ostracize an entire community of people for a few (very vocal) outliers
while i agree with you that the some people can sometimes selectively ignore why others cannot go vegan, i'd like to point out that phrases such as "cruelty free" are actual labels used in the US for products and food, and regardless of what they might imply they are identifying labels that people actually use. Also, I have yet to find an item description (though i haven't looked at them all yet) that implies that people who aren't vegan just "aren't ready".
I totally see your point, but would just like to point out that those are specific to certain (definitely problematic) people rather than the vegan community as a whole, and while its important to point them out, its dangerous to ostracize an entire community of people for a few (very vocal) outliers
11
Valiska
@Sprinter137
People don't react that way just because you mention veganism. In fact, if someone's coming to my house to eat, I want to know all their food preferences/dietary needs and restrictions, so that I don't serve them food that they will dislike, or worse, get sick from.
It's when people start talking about WHY they are vegan that things get heated. I have a couple friends who are vegan because animal foods disagree with them. We have never had an argument about the fact that I need to eat meat and they need to not eat meat.
But when people start talking about cruelty and immorality and implying that people who don't want to be vegan or vegetarian just aren't ready yet, then yes, people will explain why they cannot eat vegan (or at least not 100% of the time), because many vegans make it very clear that they believe everyone can and should be vegan, and that nobody's health depends on animal protein.
I am 100% fine with the store being full of vegan foods. I will probably buy some of them. I would probably eat some of them IRL, provided they didn't contain wheat, rye, or barley glutens either as ingredients or contaminants.
I am not 100% fine with some of the stickers and tee-shirts. Vegan AF - that's just fine, good for you! Walk into my house wearing that and I know what not to put on your plate, so we're good. Commentary about the 'cruelty' of other people's lives, particularly people who can't even afford to eat that way, not so much.
And I'm not fine with the implication that I'm just not ready to be vegan YET. I find that just as annoying as I find the Christian side of the family's insistence that us Hebrews will all eventually see the "light".
People don't react that way just because you mention veganism. In fact, if someone's coming to my house to eat, I want to know all their food preferences/dietary needs and restrictions, so that I don't serve them food that they will dislike, or worse, get sick from.
It's when people start talking about WHY they are vegan that things get heated. I have a couple friends who are vegan because animal foods disagree with them. We have never had an argument about the fact that I need to eat meat and they need to not eat meat.
But when people start talking about cruelty and immorality and implying that people who don't want to be vegan or vegetarian just aren't ready yet, then yes, people will explain why they cannot eat vegan (or at least not 100% of the time), because many vegans make it very clear that they believe everyone can and should be vegan, and that nobody's health depends on animal protein.
I am 100% fine with the store being full of vegan foods. I will probably buy some of them. I would probably eat some of them IRL, provided they didn't contain wheat, rye, or barley glutens either as ingredients or contaminants.
I am not 100% fine with some of the stickers and tee-shirts. Vegan AF - that's just fine, good for you! Walk into my house wearing that and I know what not to put on your plate, so we're good. Commentary about the 'cruelty' of other people's lives, particularly people who can't even afford to eat that way, not so much.
And I'm not fine with the implication that I'm just not ready to be vegan YET. I find that just as annoying as I find the Christian side of the family's insistence that us Hebrews will all eventually see the "light".
46
Rah
@Muerte - oh for sure! We honestly had such a big list of things I wanted to see on site (we don't even have many beans or tofu right now!) but I didn't want to do EVERYTHING in one go so we have a big list to work from in years to come :)
Uh hello I would like this cookie recipe please??? I just made vegan shortbread the other day and they were basically heaven and only like 4 ingredients (flour, sugar, vegan butter, salt) but I want to make more cookies, all of the cookies.
Oh gosh yes about surprise ingredients - there's a bakery here that makes these Belgian buns that I adore and are vegan, but apparently they have sweet potato in them which my friend found out because her husband is allergic and did not expect to find them there! Basically I think good labelling is really essential.
Uh hello I would like this cookie recipe please??? I just made vegan shortbread the other day and they were basically heaven and only like 4 ingredients (flour, sugar, vegan butter, salt) but I want to make more cookies, all of the cookies.
Oh gosh yes about surprise ingredients - there's a bakery here that makes these Belgian buns that I adore and are vegan, but apparently they have sweet potato in them which my friend found out because her husband is allergic and did not expect to find them there! Basically I think good labelling is really essential.
4
Muerte
@Rah
Yeah it seems to be a mostly US thing to do, though I would love to see a vegan sugar bag to go along with all the restockable baking stuff ! And vegan chocolates. I recently did some BOMB vegan cookies that made me search for vegan chocolate chips.
So many random things in our foods. I have to watch out for apple products in non-apple items because of my allergy and the food industry using it as a flavor enhancer.
Yeah it seems to be a mostly US thing to do, though I would love to see a vegan sugar bag to go along with all the restockable baking stuff ! And vegan chocolates. I recently did some BOMB vegan cookies that made me search for vegan chocolate chips.
So many random things in our foods. I have to watch out for apple products in non-apple items because of my allergy and the food industry using it as a flavor enhancer.
3
Rah
@Muerte - Yup! Less so in the UK, I don't think any of our big sugar companies do that so I tend to forget about it, but white sugar can definitely be bleached with bone char from animals. There's a ton of weird stuff that you wouldn't think would have animals in that...has animals in it. Lanolin (from sheep's wool) is used to make the D3 vitamins I think that's added to a lot of foods. I expect a large part of the animal agriculture industry will try to sell to as many places as possible, which is why so many food products have milk powder in when you're like 'but why?'
6
Rah
@Andrea - some good ideas!To answer the beer thing - not all beer is vegan! Many lagers generally are, but a lot of ales use a fining process to remove things like yeast particles and bits left over from the brewing process. They will use things like isinglass (fish bladder) or sometimes egg or gelatin to remove these leftover bits (which is called fining). A lot of craft beers now will contain lactose too, but obviously these ones do not!
Some people identifying as vegan are ok with or just don't worry too much about the beer thing as they're not ingesting the actual animal product, it's a process, and it can be tough to figure out if some places are doing it. You do your best, y'anno?
Some people identifying as vegan are ok with or just don't worry too much about the beer thing as they're not ingesting the actual animal product, it's a process, and it can be tough to figure out if some places are doing it. You do your best, y'anno?
11
Maniac
vegan options and vegan pride stuff: fair, alright
vegan stuff that openly or indirectly accuses meat eaters of cruelty/immorality: i'll pass
vegan stuff that openly or indirectly accuses meat eaters of cruelty/immorality: i'll pass
70
Andrea
eally enjoy the character evolution here, especially since Gunter is this big burly manly man who's now vegan and loves his leetle goat. Happy vibes.
I am a bit confused at the vegan brews, I assume it's more for the theme and less because booze is almost exclusively vegan. I am also a bit sad because there's only been a handful of holidays that always involved alcohol (because clearly my bb Saladin is lacking, nit, but that's besides the point).
If there's an opening for suggestions, I'd love to see more "natural, sustainable, organic, eco-friendly" beers, and ciders (they're amazing too okay) and such. There was a really neat concept on Bill Nye Saves the World, where a brewery (I believe it was in Phoenix AZ) that actually used recycled waste water to make beer. I would really love to see some evolution from not only animal friend/cruelty free, but earth friendly..... I could see that coming heavily from Esther's education. Or a small collaboration between them would be heartwarming idk
I am a bit confused at the vegan brews, I assume it's more for the theme and less because booze is almost exclusively vegan. I am also a bit sad because there's only been a handful of holidays that always involved alcohol (because clearly my bb Saladin is lacking, nit, but that's besides the point).
If there's an opening for suggestions, I'd love to see more "natural, sustainable, organic, eco-friendly" beers, and ciders (they're amazing too okay) and such. There was a really neat concept on Bill Nye Saves the World, where a brewery (I believe it was in Phoenix AZ) that actually used recycled waste water to make beer. I would really love to see some evolution from not only animal friend/cruelty free, but earth friendly..... I could see that coming heavily from Esther's education. Or a small collaboration between them would be heartwarming idk
9
Sprinter137
Why do people feel the need to tell all the reasons they're not vegan WHENEVER veganism is mentioned? No one even asked you and nobody cares. Not everything to do with veganism is an attack on meat eaters, it's called diversity so everyone on subeta is happy.
15
Isilven
@Valiska Heck yeah! I am an equal opportunity food-eater! But I'm gonna do my best to find a joint that does ribs from a local family farm, or other sustainable and ethically raised-and-euthanized farm!! >D
And I totally agree. I'm in the SJV of California where all the almond trees are and none of the water T-T I can't digest dairy milk but luckily bodegas have kept coconut milk suuuuuper cheap around here. Plus it's easy to source local family farms for EVERYTHING, animal products and produce alike.
And I totally agree. I'm in the SJV of California where all the almond trees are and none of the water T-T I can't digest dairy milk but luckily bodegas have kept coconut milk suuuuuper cheap around here. Plus it's easy to source local family farms for EVERYTHING, animal products and produce alike.
17
Valiska
@Isilven Wanna go out for ribs?
I'm not really complaining, because this IS an accurate portrayal of the things many people who aspire to be vegan and finally pull it off really do say, but I live in the SF Bay Area where there are a lot of proselytising vegans and it's really very tiresome, particularly when they try to tell you how much damage dairy farming does to the water table during droughts with an almond milk latte in their hands. (There is almost nothing that drains the water table like almond trees, dude.)
I have celiac disease. I can't eat numerous grain proteins that vegetarians use to balance out their amino acids. Being vegan would be very difficult, though some people do it; but since I like meat , I'm okay with that. When people say "well, you're just not ready" or tries to tell me that I'd be super healthy and thin (the fattest person I have ever known was 100% vegan) if I'd just stop eating animals... yeah no, go away.
I'm not really complaining, because this IS an accurate portrayal of the things many people who aspire to be vegan and finally pull it off really do say, but I live in the SF Bay Area where there are a lot of proselytising vegans and it's really very tiresome, particularly when they try to tell you how much damage dairy farming does to the water table during droughts with an almond milk latte in their hands. (There is almost nothing that drains the water table like almond trees, dude.)
I have celiac disease. I can't eat numerous grain proteins that vegetarians use to balance out their amino acids. Being vegan would be very difficult, though some people do it; but since I like meat , I'm okay with that. When people say "well, you're just not ready" or tries to tell me that I'd be super healthy and thin (the fattest person I have ever known was 100% vegan) if I'd just stop eating animals... yeah no, go away.
60
Fray
As the resident Angry Veggie, this makes me soooooooo incredibly happy! I love and need all of it!!!!!! :D
3
Laurey
Ah whoops, I must have missed that post.
Anyway, the new items look great! Can't wait to spend all my money. :P
Anyway, the new items look great! Can't wait to spend all my money. :P
0
Laurey
@Amber
Just curious, but is Drunk Gunter still going to be a thing, or not anymore? There are still the achievements for this, so I'm just wondering.
Just curious, but is Drunk Gunter still going to be a thing, or not anymore? There are still the achievements for this, so I'm just wondering.
1
Melody
Nice to see so many tasty looking vegan items! I'm not a vegan myself, but I eat a lot of vegan foods and wish that more people appreciated them too.
Oh, and love the "honesty pot" at Quick Bites. xD
Oh, and love the "honesty pot" at Quick Bites. xD
5
Saix
Ahh so many cool new items! I have a lot of spending to do. :) <3 exciting for my first Neugarten, though I suppose technically it's everyones first neugarten... but you know what I mean. Also I love the Oatmeal based items... So cute!
1
Kinky
Not vegan in the least, but these items look tasty! I just... Don't like beets XD. But these will be great for Vacutainer to munch on.
2
Muerte
I love these foods, I love that there's a much better range of stuff to help include people (and animals) that have dietary restrictions or life choices, and I even love that they even had a character whose whole life kinda revolved around meat and non-vegetarian/vegan products change.
I personally will not be going vegan any time soon though. And I also kinda want to burn some of Rumi's items.
I personally will not be going vegan any time soon though. And I also kinda want to burn some of Rumi's items.
23
Isilven
I'd love to see some stuff related to Hinduism and Jainism, since lots of people who follow those religions are vegan! I'd also love to see like a "LACTOSE FREE" sticker or something like that, perhaps something about sustainable food? The "CRUELTY FREE!" sticker is definitely more of the track I was hoping the event would stick to, pretty much.
I don't mean to sound ungrateful! I just was hoping for less of the like... "othering" that comes with being vegan/veggie, not everyone who lives/eats like that is all "rarara I am a warrior and you are bad if you are eating meat or other animal products!!" and it's a stigma that I want to help eliminate :3
I don't mean to sound ungrateful! I just was hoping for less of the like... "othering" that comes with being vegan/veggie, not everyone who lives/eats like that is all "rarara I am a warrior and you are bad if you are eating meat or other animal products!!" and it's a stigma that I want to help eliminate :3
25
Haunt
Oh my god this food looks so tasty. Props to subeta artists for constantly making me want to eat pixels
5
Isilven
Me: Oh I'm sure Subeta will be reasonable and unbiased about this! There are many reasons people choose to eat vegan or live a vegan lifestyle!
"Friends not Food! Vegan warrior!"
Me: -_-;
"Friends not Food! Vegan warrior!"
Me: -_-;
49
Morse
Haha, I was super confused a while back when I was refreshing at the brewery (for the battle opponent) and suddenly Gunther turned into Anne! Now I'm just super happy for all the items ^^
2
Sovereign
not vegan myself but its always nice to see dairy alternatives :thumbsup: milk that doesnt kill my stomach (thx lactose intolerance) is always good milk in my book
always a lil bit of everyone in these events and theyre great
always a lil bit of everyone in these events and theyre great
9
Julia
omg I just saw the Tempeh! That stuff is DELICIOUS! I had an amazing tempeh wrap a while ago, with salsa (made in-house) and I think spinach and stuff. It was delicious and I've been craving it so this is torture lol The tempeh at this place was fried so it wasn't exactly healthy but it was really tasty.
4
Balloon
Helium is vegan! I don't think the shirts are made to fit balloons, but I could always plaster on a sticker or two ^X^
4
poppy
THIS IS AWESOME. I'm not veggie myself but I adore the dino and plant power shirts so much. ; w; AND I'M SO EXCITED ALEGARTEN REBRANDED IS BACK AGAIN.
7
Jangalian
Yay!! My stockpile of new foods to feed my pet was just getting low! All of the items are so cute! :)
3
Julia
Oh cool. ^^ I've been attending a few events lately that prepared vegan and vegetarian food and a lot of it is really good. Gotta collect everything from this festival~
5
jensen
(screams loudly @ item directory, makes grillby's wishlist her default)
lmao i'm reminded of my school org t-shirts. where is my drop the beet shirt?? haha
lmao i'm reminded of my school org t-shirts. where is my drop the beet shirt?? haha
5