Quest Shop: Pride Sashes
Posted by [NPC] Quentin
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If someone asks for a special heterosexual representation during a pride celebration, they fundementallly misunderstand the purpose of said celebration, and to continue to do so is ignorant. Consider the persecution and the amount of fighting that has happened to make the marginalized spotlight even possible. Many of us are beyond acting “civil” when the world is at the fingertips of everyone and yet childish notions prevail.
Oof, just read all the comments and... not gonna get into ace discourse. (I'm biased: as an aro I absolutely believe ace+aro ppl belong at pride but I'm not touching it beyond that.)
I do want to talk about pansexuality+bisexuality, though!
While I can't say my opinion on it is correct or even widely accepted it's what I've come to understand it as and what's helped shape my identity and how I relate to these labels (pan and bi). Please feel free to correct me or weigh in, but please do so knowing I mean no disrespect in what I'm about to say.
I've viewed pan as being attraction with no thought to gender identity/gender identity being "irrelevant" or secondary. ie: attracted to traits regardless of who they're on/a part of or not having a preference with genders.
I've viewed bi as having certain gendered attractions (for example, maybe liking girls with short hair but not having any particular feelings/attractions about anyone of other genders having short hair), or basically preference where gender isn't "irrelevant" or secondary, although that doesn't limit who you can/do find attractive.
(I put irrelevant in quotations bc I don't want to sound dismissive of people's gender identity, as to many it's a very important part of who they are! I just can't think of a more expressive way to convey my point, so I apologize for that.)
So basically I see a difference in how the attraction manifests itself, not in who you can be attracted to. So it has nothing to do with "2 genders" or "includes trans ppl" (which both are just... transphobic and super problematic, obvs), which I feel is important to at least share my view on as I don't look down on or side-eye anyone using either of these and after seeing some discussions on the more problematic interpretations of both of these I thought it might be worth sharing my take on it.
Not looking to step on any toes though, and I can only speak for myself. ♥️
I do want to talk about pansexuality+bisexuality, though!
While I can't say my opinion on it is correct or even widely accepted it's what I've come to understand it as and what's helped shape my identity and how I relate to these labels (pan and bi). Please feel free to correct me or weigh in, but please do so knowing I mean no disrespect in what I'm about to say.
I've viewed pan as being attraction with no thought to gender identity/gender identity being "irrelevant" or secondary. ie: attracted to traits regardless of who they're on/a part of or not having a preference with genders.
I've viewed bi as having certain gendered attractions (for example, maybe liking girls with short hair but not having any particular feelings/attractions about anyone of other genders having short hair), or basically preference where gender isn't "irrelevant" or secondary, although that doesn't limit who you can/do find attractive.
(I put irrelevant in quotations bc I don't want to sound dismissive of people's gender identity, as to many it's a very important part of who they are! I just can't think of a more expressive way to convey my point, so I apologize for that.)
So basically I see a difference in how the attraction manifests itself, not in who you can be attracted to. So it has nothing to do with "2 genders" or "includes trans ppl" (which both are just... transphobic and super problematic, obvs), which I feel is important to at least share my view on as I don't look down on or side-eye anyone using either of these and after seeing some discussions on the more problematic interpretations of both of these I thought it might be worth sharing my take on it.
Not looking to step on any toes though, and I can only speak for myself. ♥️
These items are gorgeous. And reading 95% of these comments fills me with so much happiness because genuinely good people are THRILLED at their creation! And that's GREAT!
But wow, there certainly does appear to be a lot of unnecessary hate being directed at the cis/het crowd that isn't deserved.
It seems to me that all the people inquiring about the hetero flag have generally been issuing non-judgmental questions. And that these folks are unaware of some of the more political ugliness associated with said questions. And after some civil explanations of why the inquiries aren't welcome, everyone seems to be walking away a little more educated, and a little more understanding. This is good! Conversation can be good!
But...
I have also been seeing the cis/het crowd being called ignorant, whiny, uneducated assholes. And being told to go "die mad about it."
Maybe I missed it, or maybe the comments were deleted, but for the life of me, I didn't see anyone whining. No one was "demanding" to be included. In fact, I really didn't see anything particularly nasty being directed AT the LGBT community. So I really don't know how this much anger was infused into the conversation.
There are going to continue to be questions about why there is no hetero sash. And you know why? Right now, it's not because of malice or meanness- it's because there are 250 freaking comments in this news post, and very few people want to read them all. There are plenty of people who haven't encountered the issues that are discussed here, and plenty of people who could stand to learn more. But they shouldn't be automatically shit on.
By all means, correct misconceptions, educate others on nuances, and discuss the inner workings of these topics. But be civil!
And full disclaimer, not that it's anyone's business, but I am bi. I'd like to think I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who just wants to get along with everyone...
But wow, there certainly does appear to be a lot of unnecessary hate being directed at the cis/het crowd that isn't deserved.
It seems to me that all the people inquiring about the hetero flag have generally been issuing non-judgmental questions. And that these folks are unaware of some of the more political ugliness associated with said questions. And after some civil explanations of why the inquiries aren't welcome, everyone seems to be walking away a little more educated, and a little more understanding. This is good! Conversation can be good!
But...
I have also been seeing the cis/het crowd being called ignorant, whiny, uneducated assholes. And being told to go "die mad about it."
Maybe I missed it, or maybe the comments were deleted, but for the life of me, I didn't see anyone whining. No one was "demanding" to be included. In fact, I really didn't see anything particularly nasty being directed AT the LGBT community. So I really don't know how this much anger was infused into the conversation.
There are going to continue to be questions about why there is no hetero sash. And you know why? Right now, it's not because of malice or meanness- it's because there are 250 freaking comments in this news post, and very few people want to read them all. There are plenty of people who haven't encountered the issues that are discussed here, and plenty of people who could stand to learn more. But they shouldn't be automatically shit on.
By all means, correct misconceptions, educate others on nuances, and discuss the inner workings of these topics. But be civil!
And full disclaimer, not that it's anyone's business, but I am bi. I'd like to think I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who just wants to get along with everyone...
As an heteromantic ace, I understand the feeling of exclusion. There should be a het flag so everyone can be happy. I don't see the point of exclusion.
Really appreciative of the lesbian flag. Femme lesbians are invisible even within the community, and the flag itself is rarely used or recognized; I went to one of the largest prides in the country this past weekend and saw exactly three girls wearing those colors, compared to easily hundreds of bi/pan females and dozens upon dozens of ace flags.
I'm gonna die alone with a concerning number of cats because no gay women ever suspect I also happen to be into chicks, but at least I get 'dat pixel sash.
I'm gonna die alone with a concerning number of cats because no gay women ever suspect I also happen to be into chicks, but at least I get 'dat pixel sash.
@Samurai
If not LGBTQA+ people want to be included, they can be there as allies. Otherwise, this isn't for them, and that's just how it is.
They have tons and tons of representation and celebration everywhere else, in places made for them, by them, that aren't accepting to us.
If they want said representation and celebration, they can go to those places and celebrate their straight-ness there.
Until the time comes when we truly can celebrate ourselves in those spaces without fear of persecution, discrimination, harm and hate, then things will just have to be separate. It's not like it's race-related segregation or anything, jfc-- it's the LGBTQA+ community having their time and place.
If not LGBTQA+ people want to be included, they can be there as allies. Otherwise, this isn't for them, and that's just how it is.
They have tons and tons of representation and celebration everywhere else, in places made for them, by them, that aren't accepting to us.
If they want said representation and celebration, they can go to those places and celebrate their straight-ness there.
Until the time comes when we truly can celebrate ourselves in those spaces without fear of persecution, discrimination, harm and hate, then things will just have to be separate. It's not like it's race-related segregation or anything, jfc-- it's the LGBTQA+ community having their time and place.
>equality
>leaving people who truely want to be included into off because of a bunchful of uneducated people in both sides
pick one
>leaving people who truely want to be included into off because of a bunchful of uneducated people in both sides
pick one
@Marine It's okay. :) And I guess you have a point, it's just that I've never seen the point in trying to exclude or put down anyone that I would like to agree with me. I mean... all that does is put people on the defensive, you know? That's just my thoughts. I try to apply that to all areas of my life, but obviously I'm not going to force anyone to do the same.
@Melian_Alcarime
It was a typo, I was using a general "you" before I read that you were ace-- my apologies.
We all want acceptance, dude. But as things are right now, some people are a lot more accepted than others, and those people need to come together, celebrate their unity and resilience and pride... even if that means shutting out the people who typically oppress, misunderstand, and persecute us. They can be allies all they want for a few different reasons, but they don't get to be celebrated for being straight.
Someone brought it up previously: It's not unlike "white pride". Veeeeery similar thing going on there.
It was a typo, I was using a general "you" before I read that you were ace-- my apologies.
We all want acceptance, dude. But as things are right now, some people are a lot more accepted than others, and those people need to come together, celebrate their unity and resilience and pride... even if that means shutting out the people who typically oppress, misunderstand, and persecute us. They can be allies all they want for a few different reasons, but they don't get to be celebrated for being straight.
Someone brought it up previously: It's not unlike "white pride". Veeeeery similar thing going on there.
THANK YOU so much for not forgettnig the lesbian flag oh my god!! im a gay guy but i hate having to see my sisters in the community get ignored all the gd time... i love these so much! changing my HA immediately
I’m ace/aro, so happy we were included in this as we’re usually ignored at best. I’m also happily surprised to see this is far less ace hate than I expected.
@Marine I hope you're using the royal "you", because I already stated that I'm not heterosexual and you're kind of jumping down my throat like I don't know what we're going through. I understand that you're angry, but I'm not sure I'm the target of your anger. I want the fighting to end. There doesn't need to be a divide, and there's no reason for revenge. I am who I am, you are who you are, and my neighbor is who he is. We're people. Some of us like girls, some like guys, some like both, some like nobody, and others are more nuanced. I just don't see a reason to fight over it, when ultimately what we want is to be accepted.
*That celebrate.. them. Whatever. typos. words.
tl;dr next person to complain about "why no straight pride sash????" is getting fed to my #0507. there doesn't need to be a straight pride sash + you can't compare sexualities/romantic preferences/gender identities to hair colors (because you don't discriminate seriously against people with different haircolors, wtf?), and if there's any item relating to "straight pride" I hope it's an extremely sarcastic item
tl;dr next person to complain about "why no straight pride sash????" is getting fed to my #0507. there doesn't need to be a straight pride sash + you can't compare sexualities/romantic preferences/gender identities to hair colors (because you don't discriminate seriously against people with different haircolors, wtf?), and if there's any item relating to "straight pride" I hope it's an extremely sarcastic item
@Melian_Alcarime
The end goal is that, yes. But pride month is for celebrating differences and letting the people who have been the outgroup for so, so long take the spotlight. The ostracized, the marginalized. That includes asexuals, it does not include cissexual heterosexuals.
If you want to compare it to providing a service for certain people but not others, I’d say it’s more comparable to something like a soup kitchen. People who can’t afford food are welcome, but if you’re perfectly capable of providing for yourself, why should you get a free pass, too? And even then it’s not the same, because heterosexuals are welcome to come celebrate with us. Just don’t ask for a flag to wave, too, because just isn’t the place for it. .
The end goal is that, yes. But pride month is for celebrating differences and letting the people who have been the outgroup for so, so long take the spotlight. The ostracized, the marginalized. That includes asexuals, it does not include cissexual heterosexuals.
If you want to compare it to providing a service for certain people but not others, I’d say it’s more comparable to something like a soup kitchen. People who can’t afford food are welcome, but if you’re perfectly capable of providing for yourself, why should you get a free pass, too? And even then it’s not the same, because heterosexuals are welcome to come celebrate with us. Just don’t ask for a flag to wave, too, because just isn’t the place for it. .
@PiplupMagby34
What omg_carrie said ^_^ plus it gives us an excuse to make lots of swag with the card suits
What omg_carrie said ^_^ plus it gives us an excuse to make lots of swag with the card suits
And to Subeta I want to say: thank you. I wish everyone had a way to be included, but thank you for what you gave us. It means a lot. :)
@Melian_Alcarime
The flags are for celebrating sexualities and gender identities that have suffered and been persecuted throughout history; they're a symbol to our resilience, our communities, our survival and our continued existence in a world that gives us adversity.
Heterosexuals don't need a flag because they are accepted as the "default" and the "majority".They have so many things that celebrate you already: basically every book or movie has a heterosexual love story in it nowadays, they can hold hands and show their pride without being questioned or bothered while walking down the street, and they don't have laws, restrictions, criticisms and discriminations aimed at them just because they're straight.
This may sound mean, but that's because I'm really, really tired of people here arguing "but I'm het, where's my flag" when you haven't suffered and faced adversity because you're straight. They don't get one when you already have popular society on your side by default. Too bad.
The flags are for celebrating sexualities and gender identities that have suffered and been persecuted throughout history; they're a symbol to our resilience, our communities, our survival and our continued existence in a world that gives us adversity.
Heterosexuals don't need a flag because they are accepted as the "default" and the "majority".They have so many things that celebrate you already: basically every book or movie has a heterosexual love story in it nowadays, they can hold hands and show their pride without being questioned or bothered while walking down the street, and they don't have laws, restrictions, criticisms and discriminations aimed at them just because they're straight.
This may sound mean, but that's because I'm really, really tired of people here arguing "but I'm het, where's my flag" when you haven't suffered and faced adversity because you're straight. They don't get one when you already have popular society on your side by default. Too bad.
@Casey Hey, just want to point this out! :) It's not really possible to be a cishet asexual. The point of asexuality is that you don't feel sexual attraction at all, so you wouldn't be attracted to the opposite sex. As an asexual, I have had deep romantic relationships (emotional connection, huggles and such) with women and men, but never have experienced sexual attraction. Don't worry, we get this misunderstanding a lot. That's why we're not welcome with the LGBT community or the Heterosexual community. We're liars, we're sick, we haven't met the right one, it's just mental illness, suck it up buttercup. It really hurts, and "corrective rape" happens to us too. We need acceptance, too.
Thank you all so, so much for these! To everyone: whoever thought of, pitched, approved, drew, coloured, or any other step of the process I'm missing; I'm really appreciative to any staff that had a hand in making these become reality! (And to those who support it even if you didn't directly get them made aha.)
I'm going to be getting so many, both for myself and for various pet TCs.
And I hope this doesn't come off as selfish or ungrateful but if there's any plans to make more in the future I'll go ahead and cast in my request for an aromantic one! ♥️
I'm going to be getting so many, both for myself and for various pet TCs.
And I hope this doesn't come off as selfish or ungrateful but if there's any plans to make more in the future I'll go ahead and cast in my request for an aromantic one! ♥️
@Ryou As an asexual who faces and has faced all manner of grief for it from both het and lgbt (so happy for the ace flag), I still wish there was a het flag. It's just logical. Excluding one is like releasing a line of wigs in red, black, blonde, and gray. The people with brown hair will naturally frown and say "hey... where's mine? :( ". Well, you don't get one because your hair color is common and some of you hate gingers. All that does is further fuel animosity and create a divide where there doesn't need to be one.
In the end, we want everyone to be accepted, don't we? I thought the end-goal was for it to not be a big deal at all, like eye color or height. Was I incorrect in that thinking?
In the end, we want everyone to be accepted, don't we? I thought the end-goal was for it to not be a big deal at all, like eye color or height. Was I incorrect in that thinking?
Thank you guys for the Bisexual flag!!! There's been nothing but hate and aggressive arguments over my sexuality. It's awesome to see the representation!
Aaaaaaa, this is so cool!! Thank you for this, Subeta, and thank you so much for including Asexuality in this too, it's a comforting relief given how much a certain discourse has gone on on some... other sites. ;7;
I'm grabbin' all of these for sure~
I'm grabbin' all of these for sure~
Ahaha. Oh. Wow. This blew up when I was asleep.
A lot of other people are addressing the "I feel uncomfortable when not about me!" het/cis pride thing, and I think it's pretty obvious that the kink stuff is purely Jokes, so. Uh. Here's something I need to say.
Being intersex and being LGBT are fairly different matters. You can be proud and/or comfortable with being intersex, you can be LGBT and intersex, but it doesn't really make you LGBT by being intersex. I have a minor intersex condition (hormonal issues mostly) and its effects can make my life hell on earth, give me a lot of discomfort about my appearance and body, and I honestly hate every second of it. I'm LGBT because I'm a lesbian, not because of this.
I don't doubt that others might want to feel pride for their conditions and appearance, and that, yeah, it does break a lot of "accepted" gender and presentation stuff in society, but it's... not something everyone celebrates being.
A lot of other people are addressing the "I feel uncomfortable when not about me!" het/cis pride thing, and I think it's pretty obvious that the kink stuff is purely Jokes, so. Uh. Here's something I need to say.
Being intersex and being LGBT are fairly different matters. You can be proud and/or comfortable with being intersex, you can be LGBT and intersex, but it doesn't really make you LGBT by being intersex. I have a minor intersex condition (hormonal issues mostly) and its effects can make my life hell on earth, give me a lot of discomfort about my appearance and body, and I honestly hate every second of it. I'm LGBT because I'm a lesbian, not because of this.
I don't doubt that others might want to feel pride for their conditions and appearance, and that, yeah, it does break a lot of "accepted" gender and presentation stuff in society, but it's... not something everyone celebrates being.
I simply made a request for Bear and Leather sashes next year. Nowhere did I say they were to do with sexuality or gender.
-sidesteps drama-
@PiplupMagby34 when it's said out loud, the first syllable of "asexual" sounds kinda like "ace" so I assume that's why it's shortened to "ace"! :)
@PiplupMagby34 when it's said out loud, the first syllable of "asexual" sounds kinda like "ace" so I assume that's why it's shortened to "ace"! :)
It's really cool to see these new items here, and they look really nice too! I'm glad to see an ace pride one as well!
Though I'm none of the above, I am an ally <3
Though I'm none of the above, I am an ally <3
@Lioness
Fair enough! I hadn't thought about it that way since I assumed nb to be under the trans umbrella, and it didn't occur to me that some nb people may not id as trans. Thanks for the insight. :o) That's what I hope to get by commenting is not just to say my part but to hear other points of view. I get it now. :heart:
Fair enough! I hadn't thought about it that way since I assumed nb to be under the trans umbrella, and it didn't occur to me that some nb people may not id as trans. Thanks for the insight. :o) That's what I hope to get by commenting is not just to say my part but to hear other points of view. I get it now. :heart:
Love these!
It's often said that Aces should be excluded - thanks Subeta for not doing so, it was great to see all of these but I was extra-pleased to see the Ace one.
It's often said that Aces should be excluded - thanks Subeta for not doing so, it was great to see all of these but I was extra-pleased to see the Ace one.
The gender and sexual orientation of a person who faces discrimination is what pride is about. Thanks for showing why ace and nb people deserve representation at pride.
Oh look, THERE is the unnecessary, unwelcome, and illogical ace discourse. Here's the thing: If your argument is that a marginalized group doesn't deserve representation, you shouldn't be making it no matter what you think your 'point' is.
@Casey I just want to point out that even though the white stripe in the trans flag represents non binary identities, not all non binary people actually identify as trans. I personally don't, it's complicated and personal but I wouldn't feel comfortable using the trans flag when I don't identify as trans. Also, the trans flag alone is more associated with being binary trans than being non binary so having a separate flag can be quite useful. Just wanted to tack that on.
@Casey
yeah pansexuality was basically promoted with the whole "bi means 2" thing and i myself bought into it back then tbh but since when the bi community spoke up about it and the definition got edited bi and pan have been two different terms for the same sexuality lmao... but a lot of people still insist on IDing as pan and it's like ¯_(ツ)_/¯ what can we do? like, they even got a comparatively widely recognized flag and all, unlike let's say intersex people. lol
yeah pansexuality was basically promoted with the whole "bi means 2" thing and i myself bought into it back then tbh but since when the bi community spoke up about it and the definition got edited bi and pan have been two different terms for the same sexuality lmao... but a lot of people still insist on IDing as pan and it's like ¯_(ツ)_/¯ what can we do? like, they even got a comparatively widely recognized flag and all, unlike let's say intersex people. lol
@Desilyna
Hetero pride is everywhere, every day, all the time. Enjoy your hetero pride when you go out with your loved one and doesn't get beaten up for holding hands. Enjoy your pride when you go to the movies, theaters or listen to songs and only see straight love stories. Enjoy your pride when you are not sentenced to death for loving someone. Enjoy your pride when no one tells you that your gender is "made up." Enjoy your pride for not being kicked out when you show up with your significant other. Enjoy your pride while you do not go through the traumatizing experience of "coming out".
Hetero pride is everywhere, every day, all the time. Enjoy your hetero pride when you go out with your loved one and doesn't get beaten up for holding hands. Enjoy your pride when you go to the movies, theaters or listen to songs and only see straight love stories. Enjoy your pride when you are not sentenced to death for loving someone. Enjoy your pride when no one tells you that your gender is "made up." Enjoy your pride for not being kicked out when you show up with your significant other. Enjoy your pride while you do not go through the traumatizing experience of "coming out".
Also for the people who are sad you can't wear multiple at the same time, hopefully they will make more flag items one day. Like caps, or capes, or shirts or something. Fingers crossed!
Okay my literal one issue with these are that they dont stack,,,
I feel like that would have been a really good idea so people who use multiple pride flags (like aspec gay/bi/pan ppl or trans or nb ppl who are also not straight(i’m both of them sjhdhjfkkfj))
Can show multiple flags off at the same time
(Feel free to ignore my rambling shdjhdhmmh)
I feel like that would have been a really good idea so people who use multiple pride flags (like aspec gay/bi/pan ppl or trans or nb ppl who are also not straight(i’m both of them sjhdhjfkkfj))
Can show multiple flags off at the same time
(Feel free to ignore my rambling shdjhdhmmh)
Pride and our flags exist as a glimmer of hope and unity showing us that we exist and deserve to be proud despite the violence and homophobia/transphobia we face. Allies are super important and we need their support, we need them to boost our voices because sometimes cishet people just won't listen to us but will listen to other cishets.
That being said, allies wearing the pride flag in this context seems a bit out of sorts to me. In marches and stuff like that it's probably fair game, and i'm pretty sure allies have always had a place in pride (even if that's partly so closeted LGBT people can come to marches without outing themselves to family etc) but these items are definitely going to be used to indicate someones identity, and that's gonna make allies wearing them a bit misleading.
I also hate that this month, where we are supposed to be celebrating, always ends up full of spats about inclusion, and I find it fascinating that we are always expected to be the good guys out there making sure cishets feel safe and like they have a place in our event, when the event exists... because cishet people made us feel like we didn't have a place on this entire planet. we've been through so much and it always boils down to 'i wish my het flag was here... i want in on the fun' it's just so terribly, blissfully unaware of the gravity of our situation
That being said, allies wearing the pride flag in this context seems a bit out of sorts to me. In marches and stuff like that it's probably fair game, and i'm pretty sure allies have always had a place in pride (even if that's partly so closeted LGBT people can come to marches without outing themselves to family etc) but these items are definitely going to be used to indicate someones identity, and that's gonna make allies wearing them a bit misleading.
I also hate that this month, where we are supposed to be celebrating, always ends up full of spats about inclusion, and I find it fascinating that we are always expected to be the good guys out there making sure cishets feel safe and like they have a place in our event, when the event exists... because cishet people made us feel like we didn't have a place on this entire planet. we've been through so much and it always boils down to 'i wish my het flag was here... i want in on the fun' it's just so terribly, blissfully unaware of the gravity of our situation